All Things Alice: Interview with Mark Saltzman

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have screenwriter and playwright Mark Saltzman join me as my guest! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.

Frank Beddor  
Thanks for being on the show, Mark Saltzman. I was delighted to come across your musical, somebody else who’s been inspired by Alice in Wonderland. It never ceases to amaze me how Alice has become a muse for so many creators. I’m really curious. Why do you think Alice has lasted so long and continues to be reinvented?

Mark Saltzman
I have given that a lot of thought. There’s a uniqueness about Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass that nothing’s really eclipsed. There’s a looseness and an irrationality to the original books. I think that could only be from Reverend Dodgson, Caroll’s intimate knowledge of logic, which allowed him to avoid logic. He knew where it would fall. Most children’s stories have a moral and a very clear narrative. A beginning, middle, and end, with a heroine or hero who learns a lesson or something like that. Alice defied all of that. I think it’s because of that uniqueness that nothing else has ever come along in the past 150 years that qualifies in the same way or entices kids when they first read it. 

Alice has inspired but really, where is the adaptation of Alice in Wonderland that truly, truly succeeds? The adaptation of The Wizard of Oz absolutely supersedes the original but with Alice, from stage productions to Disney to Tim Burton, they have just avoided the whole story completely. Nobody’s been able to really wrap their arms around this elusive, mysterious piece of work by Lewis Carroll.

FB
That’s a really interesting take because you could never teach writing using that book because there is no beginning, middle, or end. You could never write a TV show, a movie, or a play for that matter, because it’s so episodic and there is a randomness to it. But thematically, it’s really interesting and really strong, because it’s asking “Who am I?” 

To your point, there is no adaptation that stands out. There are just really good references like The Matrix. The Matrix did an amazing job. Tim Burton threw it out. You focused on parts of real-life Alice, Lewis Carroll’s muse, Alice Liddell. I did the same thing in a different way with The Looking Glass Wars. 

Tell us the concept behind your play, Alice, Formally of Wonderland, A Musical Story of the Real Alice. The real Alice inspired Lewis Carroll and met Prince Leopold, Queen Victoria’s youngest son. So you went from there and did this show, which I’m assuming is some sort of romance. 

A still image featuring Alice Liddell in a blue dress and Prince Leopold in a kilt from the production of the musical "Alice, Formerly of Wonderland".

MS
Correct. It is a romance. We know there was some sort of relationship, presumably romantic, between Leopold and Alice Liddell and it seemed to have not been chronicled. Out of all the Alice works, somehow that was missed. I just loved this idea. Because for one thing, you knew going in this did not work out. In the Victorian era, if there was a romance, it was not going to end with them skipping down the aisle to be married. “So what did happen?” I wondered. When you’re writing historical fiction, you want to always be plausible and factual as much as you can. From what I learned from my research talking to a Lewis Carroll expert at Oxford, it seemed they did get together. There was proof they had a hunting trip together up the Thames which echoed the original Alice in Wonderland boat trip. In the scene in the musical, I figured Alice would certainly reflect on that. Ten years earlier, she took this boat ride with an Oxford don, Lewis Carroll. Within those 10 years, she became this famous figure as the muse of the Wonderland books and now she’s on the boat with Prince Leopold. It also made me think, “Who is this young woman who thinks she is worthy of a prince?” She’s an Oxford professor’s daughter who, for all we know, had never been to London. 

Then I started thinking about her character, being this beautiful young woman, one of the few young women in an all-boys school, and the daughter of a professor. I felt it doesn’t give you the impression of a modest, humble, young lady. I thought, “That would be a fun character to write.” Then I started looking at Leopold the same way. What could he have been like? Here’s a prince royal and he wants to go to Oxford, he wants to be educated. He’s not a Playboy Prince. They seem like they really would be interested in each other. Then, what would destroy this? Of course, Victorian society, not to mention Mom.

FB
She had a little bit of power back then.

MS
She did and she didn’t seem to use it for good very often. 

FB
Indeed she did not.

MS
She’s held in such high esteem, the beloved Queen Victoria. As England was becoming more and more woke and Oxford was trying to redo its past and take down statues of Cecil Rhodes and similar benefactors, Queen Victoria remained untouched. Here she is, the epitome of British imperialism. Who represents it more? I asked an English friend, “Why does she get a free pass? Why aren’t they taking down statues and renaming streets?” He said, “Well, she’s Queen Victoria.”

FB
I got a little criticism for portraying her as a baddie, along the lines of comparing her to Redd as if they were doppelgangers. People said, “We really love our Queen Victoria so you’re gonna rub some people the wrong way.”

MS
I could see loving Prince Albert, her husband. The more I read about him and his policies, which were much more progressive, I wonder if the history of the 20th century would have been different had he lived. He was kind of skeptical of the future of colonialism. Charles Dickens is writing here in this era. How much more blatant could the social ills of England be than in Dickens? Did she open a book? Did somebody mention workhouses and child labor to her? It seemed like all of England was aware of it because of Dickens and others. People were so riveted to his work, other than Her Majesty. It’s hard to even picture those two in the same room.

Photo of 19th century monarch Victoria, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great and Ireland and Empress of India, featuring her sitting on a throne in a veil and crown.

FB
I’m with you. I’ve been playing around with it a little bit more in adapting my book series into a TV show. I didn’t focus very much on the part of her story that you’re focused on. But then when I started to work on the show, I thought, “Oh, let me see. What was she like as a teenager?” I jumped from her at 13 to her at 20 and then I brought her back to Wonderland, not dissimilar to what Tim Burton did, I suppose. But I was wondering what was going on in English society at that time. What was going on with Queen Victoria? What is something that would make Alice feel a bit more modern? I did quite a bit of research and came to the same conclusion. They’re really giving her a pass. So, you have a scene on the River Thames with Leopold and Alice?

MS
Yes, that’s maybe the one thing I can say is absolutely factual. They did take that boat trip.

FB
That’s very romantic and very intimate. 

MS
What do they talk about? That’s what it comes down to. Once again, you want to make it plausible but still a little surprising. I imagined she would have spoken about the golden afternoon, being on the river with Lewis Carroll. I imagined he would have asked, “What was it like that day?” 

FB
Do they have a perspective on the books in your musical? Alice is famous because of the book but does Leopold have a take on it that might reflect your take on Alice in Wonderland?

MS
Her first take is she loves what it did for her. She loves the fame and she loves the social position. Her dad does not. He thinks it’s too much attention and it’s gone to her head. Leopold is so enchanted with Alice herself. He wants to know if the girl in the book is like Alice the real girl. It’s more about the young woman than the literature. But the book gets him curious. She says, “Really none at all. The fictional Alice is in a strange and dangerous land. She never thinks about her family, sister, or parents. She doesn’t even miss them. If that happened to me, I would just be destroyed.” She’d be Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. This doesn’t cross the fictional Alice’s mind. The girl in the book has a strange emotionality.

That’s another reason why the book is sort of unadaptable. The central character is essentially passive. She’s just taking it in, like a camera, and isn’t motivated to get from one place to the other. In Through the Looking-Glass, there’s a mission, but in the original, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, she’s wandering. Alice happens to make it home but she’s in no real rush to get there. She seems happy to be away from her family. Leopold says, “She must have had a mother like me.” That’s their exchange. He’s also a little interested in Dodgson and what he was like. Through my research into Dodgson, it seems like he was quite the entrepreneur.

A still image featuring Alice Liddell and Prince Leopold in a rowboat from the production of the musical "Alice, Formerly of Wonderland".

FB
He was way ahead of his time in terms of being in control of everything surrounding his work. He picked the artist, the print style, and even the font. I think he might have been the first author to come up with merchandise for a book.

MS
How come we don’t talk about him the way we’re talking about Walt Disney or any other entertainment industry titan? We like to put him in a garret.

FB
It’s a very good question. L. Frank Baum. We all know his story. 

MS
Dodgson was maybe the wealthiest don teaching at Oxford. They don’t get paid a lot.

FB
He was one of the first people to explore photography. He was very ahead of his time in a lot of ways. But he was never married. He was entrepreneurial but he didn’t seem to go out of his way to promote himself, even though he wrote endless letters to all of his friends.

MS
He did go out of his way but it was to promote Lewis Carroll, not himself. The characters were on plates and tea towels. There was always an Alice show somewhere. Not to mention, Through the Looking-Glass is an actual sequel. What did he do with his money?

FB
That’s a good question. 

MS
Why don’t we know that? I feel like there’s some English social taboo around this.

FB
I don’t understand why Charles Dodgson is not recognizable and why you have to say Lewis Carroll right afterward. But to my point, he didn’t want any recognition. That’s why he had that name he worked on. He came up with a bunch of ideas and it’s some kind of anagram. It creates space between him and the work.

MS
But, you can be pretty sure the bank accounts were in the name of Charles Dodgson. But that’s what makes me curious. This aspect of him is just ignored. It’s like writing about Walt Disney and saying, “Look at how beautifully he drew,” and that’s the end of it. You’re missing the whole point of building an empire and the “Alice Empire” is still with us. 

The Dodgson estate isn’t making anything off it. But just as a thought experiment, if Alice wasn’t in the public domain, how much would his estate be taking in from the licensing of Alice projects around the world?

FB
It’d probably be hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars but, of course, it wouldn’t have been so successful if it hadn’t been in the public domain. It wouldn’t have been successful because it was so episodic. But once it was in the public domain, then you’re just riffing off of it. But nevertheless, it’s still remarkable. No matter what medium you think about, Alice is everywhere. 

I think the idea you put forth is right and I also think a lot of people can see what they want to see. Some people see it as a fairy tale, as it’s described, while some people see it as a horror story. I think it was written for adults on some level. They didn’t have all the categories we do now – Children’s, Middle Grade, Young Adult. 

MS
This really wasn’t meant for a huge popular reading public given the satire and references to local Oxford residents. It was meant for the Liddell girls and their family.

FB
Your show, Alice, Formerly of Wonderland, is in Santa Barbara but it originated in Wyoming, correct?

A banner image promoting the Wyoming Theater Festival featuring a silhouetted man with a hat in his hand.

MS
I used to be affiliated with the Wyoming Theater Festival and when the show was in the workshop stage, I brought it there to put it in front of an audience and see what I had. It was a very skeletal version but I needed to put it on stage because the musical element is acapella singing. Leopold was musical and joined musical groups at Oxford and I love musical theater. I thought, “How am I going to make this musical? I didn’t want to do a traditional musical, it would seem like just another Alice musical. I thought, “I can use the Oxford Glee Club as a musical motif through it and Leopold would sing with them. I used some traditional British folk songs, Victorian parlor songs, and standard historical Oxford songs, and I wrote a couple of new ones. With six actors, it wasn’t easy to get that big glee club sound but our music arranger, Jack Woodson, is so brilliant. He managed to make it sound like a big chorus. We were very pleased with the musical sound of it and that people consider it a musical even though it’s very unorthodox.

FB
The glee club is a great idea. I didn’t realize Prince Leopold was in the glee club. That’s just a natural fit and using music of the time is appropriate. Plus, you don’t have to deal with the rights.

MS
We used the public domain songs and my own because, as you know, music licensing is one of the most unbearable aspects of making good art. 

FB
When you say you’re putting your show up, this is at the Wyoming Theater Festival so it’s public and people are coming to see it, but it’s rough. What’s in it for the audience? Do they participate? Do they give notes? 

MS
Generally, I talk with the audience and find out what they think. But I found at that point, at the end of the show, I already knew the audience’s reaction. If there’s a joke and the audience doesn’t laugh, you don’t have to ask them. You just bury your head in your hands and now you have to fix it. But you can’t find that out sitting in your office at the computer. You really have to have actors. 

This show has not had a typical development. We were in Wyoming then I went home and did rewrites and then COVID came. As soon as COVID started to abate, I did another reading here in Studio City at the Whitefire Theater. It’s a black box and I use that for my local experiments. We went in there with a bunch of actors and some UCLA a capella guys. Then I did one more when COVID was basically done. That one I actually solved the problems and then submitted it around and it found its way to Santa Barbara.

FB
How are people responding to the music?

MS
They seem very surprised. Even though we made no secret that it’s a musical, it’s a capella. I don’t think that’s really processed until you’re in the room. Such exciting things have happened because it’s a tightrope act. I didn’t see any loss of attention during the numbers. In fact, there’s more leaning forward because it’s such an act of derring-do to sing this much a capella. We had terrific actors who all had a capella experience and knew how to adjust if you feel yourself going off. There’s so much nuance involved and so much concentration. Sometimes they even had to dance while they were doing it while with glee, they rarely had to do it. So it was a surprising and pretty unique element. 

A still image featuring Alice Liddell and glee singers from the production of the musical "Alice, Formerly of Wonderland".

FB
It’s a romantic comedy so when you’re fine-tuning, you’re making sure you’re putting those buttons on the jokes. Having seen it now, were people laughing where you needed them to laugh?

MS
At this point, all the bad jokes are gone. We also had two previews before opening night. Fortunately, most of the clunkers had been weeded out by then. I am going back up to see it next weekend and from what I hear, as the actors have been relaxing into it more laughs emerge because I think they feel free enough to explore and try different readings. “I’m going to try to get a bigger laugh on this so I’ll hit that word harder. I’ll look right at the audience on this word.” They make these discoveries as they realize how to play this particular kind of comedy. 

I tried to do that in the English drawing room style. You can’t do an Alice story without a tea party. Alice is trapped by her father into having tea with the young Oxford man he has chosen for her. Alice is already in love with Leopold so it’s awkward, to say the least. I did that in a drawing room style and the actors got it to go into a different gear. Some of it’s pretty broad. I figured one Wonderland character oughta have an appearance and I made that the Caterpillar. He really was the only one with actual useful advice in the novel. Other people were saying the most insane things to Alice but the Caterpillar really was helpful in his haughty way. I thought in her mind Alice, if she needed advice, could imagine herself going to the Caterpillar as a thought experiment. We have Matthew Greenwood, a British actor playing the Caterpillar and doing it in the style of one of the knighted-grade actors.

FB
What are the conflicts with Alice? You brought up Queen Victoria. That’s pretty clear. Are there other conflicts these two lovers are dealing with?

MS
They both have parental conflicts. One of the things that’s also factual is that Queen Victoria was not a fan of Leopold’s desire to go to Oxford. It could have exposed him socially to the “wrong family”. There’s a very funny scene on stage, but it actually happened. There was a negotiation between Leopold and his mother as to how he would live there. Certainly not in student housing, God forbid. He would have to be in a rented house. There was a discussion about who needed to be on the staff. Would there be a doctor in residence? Talk about control over-controlling mothers.

FB
The ultimate helicopter parents.

MS
Queen Victoria demanded if Leopold had a dinner, she would have to approve the menu and the guests. 

FB
It was her youngest son. I think he was the fourth-in-line to the throne. So he probably knew he had no chance for the throne and the youngest are usually a little bit more rebellious. He had some health issues as well. 

MS
That’s what made Queen Victoria feel it was valid to have 24-hour medical observation, but Leopold was having none of that. Alice has a conflict with her father, who wants to see her happily married but knows when he finds out about her relationship with Prince Leopold it just can not be. Alice’s father has the cream of England right outside his window, these Oxford guys, and he picked one especially for her, Edward Brocket. This is an invented character but I’m sure there were many such men. I made him the captain of the Christ Church rowing team and a medical student, a perfect guy. 

A still image featuring Prince Leopold in a military uniform and Queen Victoria in a crown and purple gown from the production of the musical "Alice, Formerly of Wonderland".

FB
Tall, strapping, big shoulders. Okay, I got it.

MS
Exactly. Played by tall, strapping Sawyer Patterson. When he walked into the audition I went, “Well, there it is.” As Leopold says, ruefully, Brocket is healthy. Leopold backs off and says, “Go with the healthy personnel and have a long life.” Alice is too insanely in love at that point. But Brocket isn’t a big dumb jock or a hostile Gaston. He’s a good guy and he’s exactly who she should have had. One of the reasons I made him a jock was eventually the real Alice Liddell married a professional athlete, a cricket player. That probably was on her radar. She married a famous man. She didn’t marry the country doctor.

FB
That was Reginald Hargreaves.

MS
I think she still wanted to maintain her position. She married someone famous in some way so she wouldn’t suddenly fade from sight because she married an obscure, even wealthy,  son of an Earl from Northumberland or something. I don’t think she was married for money. I’m sure she loved him but it was good for her public image. A famous athlete was certainly an attraction. 

FB
I made the connection between Leopold and Alice having a love story. That was real because they both named their first child after each other. She had a boy she named Leopold and Prince Leopold named his daughter Alice. So I thought, “Okay, that’s enough of a connection. There must have been something there. I’m gonna go with that.”

MS
When I got to that in my research I thought, “The universe just handed me the end of the play.”

FB
Is that the end of the play?

MS
The Caterpillar is a kind of wrap-around character. He gives that information and there’s occasionally a little gasp in the audience. It hammers home the truth. 

FB
Beautiful. Very exciting. How long is it running?

MS
This is the last week. June 16th is the last show. 

FB
What’s the hope for the next steps?

MS
It’s six actors and off-Broadway sized. My last show in New York, Romeo and Bernadette, was off-Broadway. It was in a nice little theater on 42nd Street. I’d like to have Alice, Formerly of Wonderland follow that trajectory to Off-Broadway in New York.

A still image featuring the Caterpillar and other company members from the production of the musical "Alice, Formerly of Wonderland".

FB
Fingers crossed. 

What was your introduction to Alice in Wonderland? Did you read it as a child or was it the Disney movie? 

MS
I think I read it before the Disney movie. I was a big reader. Reading the initial books, I don’t think was that life-changing because you’re reading everything. I remember gravitating to  English children’s books like Winnie the Pooh when I was really little. But when I was a little older, I found The Annotated Alice, which I’m sure you know. That was a rabbit hole I dove into. I talked to fellow English major nerds about this and it turns out, for a lot of us, that was the first literary criticism we ever encountered. It was the first time we recognized there’s more to a book than we may have imagined. It was so easily readable and digestible. Martin Gardner did the notes in the margins.

FB
I thought it was brilliant. I think everybody should read it, even if you don’t care about knowing everything about Alice, because to your point, it’s so consumable and digestible.

MS
It gives you the goods. It’s not holding back. Rather than reading a magazine article about literary criticism, The Annotated Alice was in these teaspoon-sized bits to take in and be fascinated by. In some way, that put me on a path towards being an English major in college. That book said, “There’s more than you imagined here. Let us explain.”

FB
Have you thought about your play as a show or movie? 

MS
I have but if it’s not Merchant Ivory making it I’m not sure I’m interested. The depiction of the Victorian period has to be so beautiful. I don’t know if that’s a Netflix movie. What else are we gonna have?

FB
They don’t make movies like that anymore. Barely any movies at all.

MS
I don’t really see how it could find its way into the media universe that way. I wish but we just don’t live in that world. Maybe there’s some English film company. But first, I want to move it down the theatrical path. 

FB
Your other show, Romeo and Bernadette, what was that about? 

MS
That was another fantasy, exploiting an English author.

FB
Wonder why they hate us American authors.

MS
We try so hard. Romeo and Bernadette started as a movie script that never got made. It’s essentially, at the end of Romeo and Juliet Romeo doesn’t drink the poison. He drinks more of Juliet’s sleeping potion and that puts him out. He wakes up hundreds of years later and finds a girl who looks a lot like Juliet but she’s an Italian-American girl in Verona on a family vacation. Romeo follows her back to Brooklyn and finds out she’s the daughter of a mafia don. He gets involved with the wrong mafia family and the whole thing starts again, except they’re happy. It was knocking around, including with some British companies for a movie and it didn’t happen. Everybody said to me how good it was and how funny it was. So I made it into a little musical, nine actors, and we played New York with really nice reviews.

Promotional banner image for the musical "Romeo and Bernadette" featuring the New York skyline and animated figures of Romeo and Bernadette.

FB
That sounds like a great idea.

MS
We’re mixing the cast album right now.

FB
Are you musical yourself?

MS
I am. I always say this, coming out of college I had an Ivy League English degree and the ability to play piano. What was gonna get me work? I started playing piano in New York for auditions and bars, got my feet on the ground, and started writing. On occasion, I’d work on a show like Sesame Street where I could also write songs in addition to the script writing and Alice has two songs that I wrote. So I tried to keep a toe in the musical world, too. I really love it and listen to a lot of music every day. 

FB
When you were writing on Sesame Street did you just suggest some music or did they ask you if you could write a song? Or was that just part of a song that you put into a script?

MS
I think one of the reasons they hired me in the first place was because they knew I was musical. I was writing songs and sketches for off-Broadway reviews. A Sesame Street actor was in one of them and she brought me over there and said, “He’s gonna write for me now. When you were writing a script, often the writers were the lyricists. For Sesame Street, every sketch has to teach something. So if you want to teach that it’s good to try new foods, you might do that in the form of a song or you might do an informative sketch. On occasion, I would be paired with a composer but other times a tune was hidden in my head and I would just submit it. Sometimes they’d take it, sometimes they rejected the music and passed it along. But it was a rare opportunity to be writing songs while writing television scripts.

FB
It sounds like a great experience and a great gig. 

MS
It was. It was exhausting though. It was the hardest scriptwriting I’ve ever done. It had to appeal to preschoolers. It had to appeal to adults. It couldn’t be lame. It had to teach something and it had to be funny. That’s a lot in a little sketch.

A promotional image for the PBS show "Sesame Street" featuring Elmo, Big Bird, Cookie Monster, and Bert and Ernie.

FB
So you’re saying it’s difficult to put all that into a little sketch? Or were the powers that be demanding these things have to all work together? Were they difficult or was it just the actual writing and creating that made all those elements gel? 

MS
Everyone agreed this was the Sesame Street formula. This is what made Sesame Street, the notion that the humor was not going to be lame. It was going to be sharp humor, like any sketch comedy show. If you think about it, if you’re writing for Saturday Night Live or any other comedy sketch, it just has to be funny. But with Sesame Street you have to do all those things at once in every single sketch. They’d be tested on kids to see if the sketches actually did teach them. In my time the head writer was focused on television comedy, not education, but over your shoulder was the Harvard School of Education saying, “That’s not teaching.” Also remember, this is public television so the wages aren’t going to be like the compensation at a network. So if you’re a good comedy writer, what are you doing here at PBS? It was tough to find the right kind of writer and keep them. But if you didn’t get paid in wages, you got paid in Emmy Awards.

FB
I saw Mrs. Santa Claus was one of your other projects.

MS
That’s a TV musical musical with songs by Jerry Herman (Hello, Dolly!) and starring Angela Lansbury. It still seems to be a perennial online. I used to get contacted about people enjoying it. We gave it a progressive slant. I still can’t believe we got away with that. Mrs. Claus comes to New York in 1910 and she gets involved with the women’s suffrage movement, child labor, and unions. The feminists love us for it. It’s an easy way to teach how difficult it was to vote and how to organize around that. I’m pretty proud of that one. I’m glad it’s been living on. 

A promotional image from the 1996 TV musical comedy "Mrs. Santa Claus" featuring Angela Lansbury as Mrs. Anna Claus and Charles Durning as Santa Claus.

FB
Do you see many Broadway shows? Anything you’re a fan of that you wish you had written? 

MS
When I get to New York there’s never enough time. The last thing I saw was a production of Sondheim’s show Merrily We Roll Along. I had tremendous affection for it when I was young. It first opened in the eighties and finally, people are making it work and it’s a hit now with Daniel Radcliffe. I love that. I also saw Sondheim’s new posthumous show, Here We Are. To be involved in musical theater at all is to be worshiping at the feet of Sondheim. Whatever might be playing of his, I’ll make a special effort to go see.

FB
Do people come to you about writing a book for an idea? Or do you generate most of your ideas and work on those?

MS
It works both ways. I’m trying to think what people in theater have come to me for that has actually been produced. There’s so much of it. If I’m doing it myself, I have my steps. I know what to do but it can be very painstaking and slow and I’m not sure collaborators can put up with that. People do come to me and I’d say fifty percent of the projects I want to work on and fifty percent I don’t, whether it’s because I’ve done something like that before or I just don’t see how it’s ever gonna get done. But it’s always flattering when someone comes to you and invites you to work with them. But I would say the shows I’ve had produced have all been originated by me.

FB
Theater is much like film or television. There are a lot of plays or musicals being developed that we never get to see because it’s really difficult to get them up on their feet and for all the elements to come together. One of the things that’s really underrated is the book writer. To get that book right to make a musical work is really hard. 

MS
It’s no different from screenwriting or TV writing. It’s the same skills. you know, playing songs. But if you find yourself with those skills at an early age, wouldn’t you jump into TV? I did. I needed to make a living,

FB
They don’t pay very much in theater.

MS
As they say, “You can make a killing but you can’t make a living.”

FB
So if you’ve done Wicked, you’re good. 

MS
Pretty much. But there’s only one or two shows like that per decade. Yet there are so many other positives about it. But if you’re starting out and you do need the paycheck, you really can’t do theater. The payoff is after opening unless you were lucky enough to be commissioned, which you won’t be at an early age. You could be working for years on a project and then get to opening night and hope for the best that maybe now you’ll get paid. Whereas, in TV and film there is a union, of which I’m a proud member, and the union makes sure, like any union, that you get paid at a specific pay rate. On the other hand, you’re selling your copyright. Whereas you own the copyright in theater and you have the final word on casting and the script. That’s all up to the playwright.

FB
It’s the same with the novelists. Part of my interest in writing was born out of losing copyright and being frustrated and saying, “I’d like to be the author from beginning to end and play in my own sandbox.” Not that those always pay enough to pay the bills and so forth. But creatively, It’s so fulfilling. 

MS
That’s it. There are other rewards. The union jobs for money, the theater, and novel jobs for us.

FB
If you were a character from Alice in Wonderland who would you be and why?

MS
The Annotated Alice is still in my head but it’s the White Knight. There’s inventiveness and kindliness about him. The Caterpillar was helpful but had that horrible attitude, which I exploited.

A colorized illustration of the White Knight and Alice by Sir John Tenniel from "Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There".

FB
And he’s stoned a lot.

MS
If only. To me, it would take that horrible haughty Oxford edge off him. He seems to me, and I wrote him this way, as the most Oxfordian of any of the characters in Alice in Wonderland. That attitude of “Who are you?” That superiority is so absurd. Whereupon the White Knight is humble and kind but completely inept and not helpful at all. But at least she didn’t end up in an ocean of saltwater or having your head stretched. At least he was kind. I think that the Caterpillar’s attitude is coming over decades from The Annotated Alice. It was pointed out there and I never forgot about it. I also remember there was speculation that the White Knight was the Lewis Carroll self-portrait because you can’t imagine him as any of the other characters. The White Knight is slightly ridiculous and that might be how Dodgson felt with his speech impediment, that he was a figure of ridicule. He probably was ridiculed because of the way kids talk about their teachers.

FB
Riding in on the horse also puts him above everybody so that’s got to feel good.

MS
It’s a quiet episode compared to beheadings and croquet. That was always a place in the books where I felt at home.

FB
Very good answer. I read in an interview, that somebody asked you if you were an expert on Alice in Wonderland or Lewis Carroll and you said you weren’t an expert, but you did so much research. I did the same thing. I went to Oxford and spent six months there and it was so much fun.

MS
This is the one place where the show expresses anything I felt, but Prince Leopold has a speech where he says, “Oxford is Wonderland.” That’s how I felt. I’ve been to places in Europe before and nothing was ever like Oxford to me. I just can’t compare it to any other place I’ve been. I would love to spend months there. 

FB
I’ve always been a big fan. I love the British Museum and then being in Oxford it does feel like its own Wonderland. There are Wonderland Gardens that look like they are from Oxford. I didn’t even realize there were so many people who create Wonderland hedges out of characters.

It’s been a real pleasure speaking with you, Mark. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

MS
Thanks for inviting me. I really enjoyed it.

For the latest updates & news about All Things Alice,  please read our blog and subscribe to our podcast!

What Does Skiing Have to Do With “There’s Something About Mary”?

Almost 30 years ago I was on a chairlift with Dylan Sellers, then an executive at Fox, ascending the slopes overlooking the Sundance Film Festival. I started telling Dylan about a screenplay written by my friends, John Strauss and Ed Decter. It was a comedy about a man who hires a private investigator to find his high school dream girl and it was absolutely hysterical. When we got off the lift Dylan said, “Let’s make this movie.” That movie was There’s Something About Mary. 

Rereading Christine Dietzel’s piece in Teton Gravity brought back all those wonderful memories of how my skiing career opened a door to the entertainment industry. My success in the skiing world led to work as a stunt skier in films such as “Hotdog! The Movie” and the black comedy “Better Off Dead” starring John Cusack. This led to acting roles and forming relationships with a variety of talented filmmakers. The origins of There’s Something About Mary took place on the slopes (and chairlifts) of Sundance. The thriller I produced, Wicked, garnered rave reviews after its Sundance screening and helped launch the career of our star Julia Stiles. 

Christine’s captivating writing made this an enjoyable rabbit hole to revisit. Read the full piece below or click here for the original version. 

The Women of Hatter Madigan

Put to rest any delusions or disinformation you may have of the tea-guzzling madman of Alice in Wonderland and prepare to expand your consciousness with the story of the real Mad Hatter and his relentless search for Alyss, the lost Princess of Wonderland. In The Looking Glass Wars, Royal Bodyguard Hatter Madigan was ordered by Queen Genevieve to take Princess Alyss and leave Wonderland after a bloody palace coup staged by the murderous Redd. But while escaping through the Pool of Tears (the portal from Wonderland to our world), crushing centrifugal force pulled them apart. Hatter finds himself in Paris in 1859, shockingly separated from the child he had been sworn to protect. Crisscrossing the globe for 13 years in search of the princess, Hatter was aided by some of our world’s smartest and bravest women. These characters form the “syndicate” of women around the globe who have met this mysterious, gallant, stoic, otherworldly, and relentless bodyguard. Each vowed to assist him in finding Alyss and serving Light Imagination.

Hatter M – Book 1 – Far from Wonder

Illustration of Magda Pushikin in a black dress with jewelry by artist Ben Templesmith.

Magda Pushikin – An ambitious reporter covering Budapest.
Location: Moscow

A glamorous and pushy Russian newswoman determined to track Hatter Madigan and uncover his mission. During her sleuthing, she and Hatter end up joining forces to rescue a group of schoolgirls including Girl 42 – a seemingly deranged and uncontrollable child with an uncanny ability to channel other people’s thoughts, Wonderland, and blue butterflies. 

All are imprisoned in a sketchy orphanage run by proponents of Dark Imagination. 

Magda forms an unbreakable bond with Hatter and promises to help him with his search for Alyss in any way she can.

Hatter M – Book 2 – Mad with Wonder

Illustration of Sister Sally, wearing a dress and shaded in pink, from a panel from the graphic novel "Hatter M: Mad with Wonder" by artist Sami Makkonen.

Sister Sally – Bible Belt healer in America’s South
Location: New Orleans

Hatter learns of this glowing girl and her mission for mankind and believes she may be the lost Alyss. He tracks her down only to see her snatched by a local slave trader/soul stealer (Van de Skulle) with ties to Redd’s Wonderland. Hatter rescues Sister Sally and a strong alliance is formed. She owes Hatter her ‘soul’ and is determined to be a faithful friend for as long as he needs her. Sister Sally’s healing abilities are epic and she has a direct line to God. You know you’ve got a good friend when they’re a friend of Jesus!  Amen.

Hatter M – Book 3 – The Nature of Wonder

Triptych panel from the graphic novel "Hatter M: The Nature of Wonder" by artist Sami Makkonen, featuring Philomena Ark in a blue uniform wielding a pink rayrifle.

Philomena Ark – Civil War Intelligence Agent
Location: Washington D.C.

Philomena, the fierce, pigtailed, inventor of the ray rifle works in the X-Files-styled Illuminated Forces (I.F.), an investigative branch of intelligence dealing with paranormal events. When vials of Dark Imagination are inhaled by the Confederate army in the final days of the Civil War, the Illuminated Forces are ordered by President Lincoln to find the antidote – Light Imagination. At the same time, Hatter Madigan arrives in Washington D.C. in hopes of discovering the answers to secrets that will lead him to Alyss. Philomena is a hyper-intelligent blend of paranormal investigative genius, romantic teenager, and inventive lab rat. If you need it, Philo can build it. Hatter will rely on her futuristic skill set and loyalty as he navigates the globe.

Sketch of Realm, wearing white robes, from the graphic novel "Hatter M: The Nature of Wonder" by artist Sami Makkonen.

Realm – Shaman of the White Flower Tribe
Location: Secret caves within the Grand Canyon

Hatter discovers Realm and her people after the Illuminated Forces airship piloted by Philomena Ark is blown out of the sky by a hail of burning arrows launched by the White Flower tribe.

Near death, Hatter’s life is saved by Realm in a sweat lodge ceremony that reveals her distant ties to Wonderland’s Queens. Realm and Hatter are drawn together by their exceptional qualities of duty and service to others. Attacked by the United States army, Realm and her tribe are forced into hiding in the Grand Canyon. Hatter assists the tribe in escaping and Realm is forever grateful. Her mystic abilities to astral project, shapeshift and distill the rare substance known as Light Imagination from the scent of her tribe’s namesake White Flower render her a formidable ally.

Hatter M – Book 4 – Zen of Wonder

Panel from the graphic novel "Hatter M: Zen of Wonder" featuring Nekko, dressed in a yellow kimono lined with blue, sitting cross-legged on a tile roof. By artist Sami Makkonen.

Nekko –   Twelve-year-old Zen Master.
Location: Mountain Top Monastery in Japan.

Hatter meets Nekko on the rooftops of San Francisco after she steals his hat and leads him on a chase to her secret dojo. Nekko recognized Hatter as a searcher in need of guidance and, despite his objections, volunteered her services in his quest for enlightenment. When Hatter meets Nekko, she is in her ‘traveling clothes’ of gangly teenage J-pop Zen adventuress. It is written that when you are ready a teacher will appear, but if that teacher is a 12-year-old girl and you are a high-ranking Bladesman you may discover that all you can do is laugh. Hatter and Nekko’s adventure around the ring of fire begins when they track a stolen samurai sword with a Wonderland connection to San Francisco’s 19th-century hip-hop crime madam Missy Tong and her eager protégé, the outspoken Lil’ Dick. In return for her assistance, Hatter acts as Nekko’s bodyguard during her return to a mountain-top Zen monastery in Japan. After Hatter leaves, Nekko shifts back to her essential ‘in-house’ self, the Happy Cat Buddha. Nekko will be available with wisdom and wit, whenever Hatter’s plans become too serious and he needs enlightenment.

Hatter M – Book 5 – Love of Wonder

Collection of four illustrations of Jet Seer against a dark red background by artist Sami Makkonen.

Agent Jet Seer – DNA Runner for 21st Century Bio Corp
Location: Undisclosed

Jet Seer is an agent from a future that needed saving. As a badass time, traveler, she tracked the glow of Imagination throughout history in search of enlightened ones, men, and women whose incredible minds could inspire her timeline – a time where automation, algorithms, and virtual reality have reduced man to a listless and sedentary existence. From Aristotle to Zappa and everyone in between, nothing could stop the incomparable Jet on her quest.

A mix of Egyptian genetics and Lawrence of Arabia style, Jet is discovered by Hatter and Dalton (Hatter’s long-lost brother) in the desert outside Constantinople singlehandedly attacking a slave caravan in search of a mysterious girl. She is a time-traveling DNA runner hired by a mysterious Bio Corp. Hatter realizes they are both seeking Alyss of Wonderland but for very different reasons. The powers in the future have discovered the source of all Imagination, what amounts to the God molecule that once existed in Alyss Heart of Wonderland, known to be lost in our world for 13 years. Enabled by time travel tech, they have sent this time-traveling bounty hunter back to collect it. Agent Seer is committed to her mission until she meets Hatter and realizes there is a higher calling than DNA harvesting. In the service of Light Imagination, she assists Hatter in locating Alyss.  They plan to return to Wonderland together but Jet is arrested by time-traveling agents who arrive to escort her back to the 21st century in virtual handcuffs. But Jet Seer is not deterred. She promises Hatter she will be looking out for him from the 21st century and will do everything in her power to help him. Returned to the 21st century, Agent Seer escapes the agents and starts her own time-traveling agency to serve Light Imagination.

To read any of my graphic novels go to our store or Amazon.

Arizona State University – Privileged Imagination

One of my readers was very, very upset with me. I was on a tour of British schools promoting The Looking Glass Wars and, though it had been a great success overall, at that moment I was in the crosshairs of a very cross young man who believed I made a grave mistake. Why had I neglected to tell the story of Hatter Madigan’s 13 years searching for Princess Alyss? It was a damn good question, one I didn’t have a ready answer to. But on the plane back to the States, I thought, “Maybe I could do a comic book about those 13 years.” That’s how the Hatter M graphic novel series came into being. 

School visits are one of the more rewarding aspects of promoting and talking about my stories. You’re going right to the source. You have to go out to the audience to understand what your world is and how it’s affecting them. Having the feedback from kids in terms of what they like, what they feel is working, and what sparks their imagination is really important. 

I met Kira Assad (the writer of the article below) when I spoke at an event hosted by Professor James Blasingame at Arizona State University during the promotional tour for Hatter Madigan: Ghost in the H.A.T.B.O.X. Kira told me an amazing story about how The Looking Glass Wars inspired her to study English in college and to write fiction herself. It’s so gratifying and humbling to know that my work has been a looking-glass through which young people fall in love with reading and storytelling. As evidenced by the stern English lad who inspired six graphic novels, sometimes your readers can provide the biggest sparks of imagination. 

Read the original text of Kira Assad’s article – “Privileged Imagination: What I Learned from Frank Beddor”

All Things Alice: Interview With Adrienne Kress, Part 1

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Adrienne Kress join me as my guest on this episode! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.

"All Things Alice" podcast logo featuring Adrienne Kress with images of book covers for "Bendy: Fade to Black", "The Explorers", "Alex and the Ironic Gentleman", and "Hatter Madigan: Ghost in the H.A.T.B.O.X."

Frank Beddor
I want to talk about your books and writing. But I didn’t realize that you started as a playwright. You started as an actress, as well, so I want to talk about that.

Adrienne Kress
I’m also a producer now. So we have that in common. My husband and I produced this very small indie horror movie over COVID.

FB
Congratulations on that. 

AK
Thanks. We wrote it. He directed. I starred in it. We were supposed to go on a honeymoon in 2020 and that didn’t happen so we used that money to make a little movie.

FB
What does that say about the launch of your marriage?

AK
That was how I knew I had met my soulmate. 

FB
I’m interested in the acting part of it because I started as an actor. I had been doing commercials for ski companies so I caught the bug. You started really young though, as a kid.

AK
I did theater school first so I wasn’t doing professional gigs until high school. I was studying at art school and doing plays. So it’s interesting because with theater acting, even if you’re 10-11 years old, there’s still all this technique just by virtue of being on stage.

There are definitely habits you learn and then when you get older, and you’re suddenly in theater school in England as an adult, they’re like, “You need to just relax. You overthinking it. It became less about technique and more about just being in the moment. 

FB
I found it hard not to try and do what I thought they wanted. The performance versus tapping into my own truth at the moment. Auditioning was very, very scary and daunting. But in terms of the couple of movies I did, I thought, “Oh, if you’re just really relaxed, and you start by being yourself and then think about what to bring to it, you find a voice at the moment.” Did you find the same thing? What was your approach?

AK
Absolutely. I came to film acting after theater acting. One of the things almost all theater actors will tell you is there’s a steep learning curve of doing less, do nothing at all. I found that very challenging, but at the same time, I agree, it’s very freeing, with film, to have multiple chances to do some things and multiple takes. You’re also having an intimate moment, just between you and the other person, but there happens to be a camera there. It’s very freeing. 

But I’m with you on auditions. I think I’ve gotten to a place now with auditions where I’m just like, “If they want me, they want me.” If they want what I can do and they want what I look like, they will want me. If they wanted someone else then they didn’t want me. I know I’m good enough that it’s not going to be, “Oh, no, this person is terrible. Why would we work with her?” It’s very much centered on what they’re looking for on there. I’m a lot more relaxed than I used to be. I used to be so wound up and tried to read their minds. What do they want? Now my attitude is I’m just gonna take advantage of this moment to act because it’s not like you get a ton of gigs. 

Author Adrienne Kress reclining on a table and reading a book.

FB
I was shocked at how little you have to do in film. It’s you. It’s just the thoughts that come into your mind, through your eyes, and in your expressions. If you try, you’re dead. You’re overacting. That was startling to me.

AK
It’s completely different and it’s very hard. It’s tough when people will fall down. Sometimes, actors aren’t to blame if there’s a bad performance in a movie or TV show but nine times out of 10 what that actor is doing is still very, very difficult. It’s all the stuff around it, whether it’s the lines or whether they were given time with the work before shooting because I don’t think people realize how hard it is to do nothing. It’s really, really hard.

FB
It’s really the thought process. You have to prepare and you have to get in that frame of mind so you’re thinking the thoughts that get communicated. Much like writing. You have this idea that you’re trying to communicate with a sentence or a paragraph or a Chapter, and you think, “I think I know what I’m feeling and it’s just gonna come off the page. Is there any chance this is gonna happen? Probably not.” At least that’s how I felt, there’s no way they’re gonna get this.

AK
It’s the best feeling when they do.

FB
Both in acting and in writing. When they come back and ask you, “Subtexturally, what was going on for you when you were creating or writing that scene?” And the same thing with acting. It’s so effortless, right?

AK
Probably in all areas of life, the more effortless the thing looks the more effortful we’re not to assume it is. The more impressed we shouldn’t be.

FB
That’s so true. When I was acting, one of my acting coaches said that if you really want to understand the playwright, you have to understand who they are as a person. Read their biographies or learn why they’re telling the stories and that will give you hints into the text. Then she had me write the scenes before the scene you’re acting as if you were the playwright. That’s what queued me into wanting to write books because I love playwrights and I think the work is remarkable, how so much of it comes through this dialogue. But that experience of writing out the scene before the scene I was acting was what motivated me to start writing. 

So I’m curious about you. First, you had English teachers as parents, that seems like a high bar to deal with. It’s in your DNA. Obviously, you started writing. Tell me about writing plays and ultimately how the process of writing a play might inform the actress you are. 

AK
I love that question. I was always writing things. My dad taught creative writing, so, when I was five, he’d have me do exercises he was doing with his high school students. I was always creating stories and playing make-believe. But when I came to playwriting properly, I had been a drama major for long enough that I’d seen enough scripts that writing plays came from understanding character as an actor. That has also translated into the book writing subsequently, but with writing plays, as you said, they’re generally very dialogue-heavy. That’s really what you have to go off of as an actor and as a director. I think that led to my very, very dialogue-heavy books. Writing dialogue is probably my favorite thing to do in general and specifically in books and then in one of the Bendy books, The Illusion of Living, I literally just put in a short play. So I guess the acting informed the playwriting, which in turn informed the book writing so it does come back to acting for me, being inside the head of the characters and going inside out. I think there are some authors, like your George R.R. Martins or Tolkiens, who might create mythos and world-building and then think about how to tell the story and which characters they need to tell the story. Whereas I generally come from the germ of the character.

Author Adrienne Kress signing a copy of "Bendy: Fade to Black" for a young fan.

FB
That makes sense to me as well. Do you say the dialogue? Do you read the dialogue out loud? Do you play the different parts when you’re writing a play or prose? Or do you read it to somebody and see how it works or do you just trust it?

AK
I can be just going for a walk or something and then start to create a little dialogue in my head. I do a weird sort of humming, which I only realized I did recently. I’m reading not even just dialogue but any words on the page, but I’m not saying the words out loud. So I’m constantly reading out loud, but it’s very small. With plays you often workshop and take them out to actor friends. With books, obviously, I have beta readers as you know. My parents, the English teachers.

FB
Really? I have two kids and my son is writing essays for college and I’m like, “Hey, do you want me to read your essay?” He goes, “Oh, no, I’m good dad.” Really? You don’t want me to take a look at it? I’m a writer.

AK
He can take advantage of it.

FB
He came around. But I have to be very careful in terms of walking him through any ideas or changes. If I’m too forceful he shuts down. My daughter doesn’t show me anything unless she’s under a deadline and she’s stuck. How were your parents? 

AK
They’re very good high school English teachers and I’m an only child so I was it. They would go, “Oh, this is an interesting idea. Hey, Adrienne, have you heard of it?” Not just when it comes to writing, there was always a lesson to something or an educational component growing up. Having them look over my schoolwork growing up, it’s just the next step.

FB
You felt they fostered your work and your homework and your creativity, and you didn’t really bump up against them because they were good teachers.

AK
They’re good at being harsh, which is the point. The good thing about my parents when it comes to this is they’re very honest. They’ve always been very good at being that teacherly, “Okay, so I’m not sure this bit works and I’ll tell you why.” But they were also so supportive of all my creative endeavors and very proud and impressed by me, which is nice. It also meant that I had confidence in what I was doing. Even though it always hurts, whether it’s editors or your parents, to hear this isn’t quite working or they didn’t like this bit. That will always be like a dagger. I also had the confidence that generally, my work was good so I kept moving forward. Also since my first book, Alex, I’ll say, “No, I disagree. I want to keep going with this.” I’ve also always had that relationship. It’s not, “We’re the parents, therefore we’re right and you’re wrong.” It’s always been a conversation.

Author Adrienne Kress at a book signing event with her parents.

FB
So you’re equals when it comes to the creative process.

AK
Maybe when I was a little younger, I probably couldn’t have fought but now yes and it’s great. So I have my parents and I also have my agent. She’s wonderful. Not all agents necessarily edit and they don’t necessarily want to, but she’s very good. We’ve been together for close to 15 years. She knows my work inside and out and I really respect her thoughts. Again, it’s the same vibe as with my parents.

FB
That’s what a good editor does. My editor made a point of saying, “This is your book. I love everything that you’re doing. Now, I’m going to send you a couple of suggestions.” So after softening me up, then the suggestions come and it’s page after page. 

AK
I think it’s called the sandwich method. Praise at the beginning, then you give your critique and then you end with praise. I’ve definitely had editors use that on me, as well.

FB
What was the first thing that you wrote that was really satisfying and gave you that start of confidence? Was there a moment when you said, “I think I want to do this and I can do this?”

AK
I have no clue when but my mom and my dad, specifically with his creative writing, started teaching me creative writing. But, from birth, it feels like I’ve had competence in my storytelling ability. Writing stories in English class in elementary school was always my thing and I always got really good grades. I had all the validation in the world. I did a book with a friend. She and I were both known for our creative writing and it was so popular that the principal got a copy of it. So I’ve always had that validation. Then throughout high school, I was doing creative writing classes. But in my last year of high school, I wrote a play for a playwriting class. It was probably one of the first one-act plays, a properly structured play that I wrote was chosen for a student-run one-act play festival. All the producers, directors, writers, actors, crew, everybody were students. One of my friends was chosen to be a director and he chose my play and I was cast in the first play of three. So I was there every night and I would sit at the back of the audience for the third play, which was mine, and listen to it being performed. 

It’s what we were talking about earlier when you write something and you hope to get an effect. When people laughed at the jokes right on cue as if they were being directed to, I thought, “Is this a better feeling than acting?” I still don’t have the answer, but it was really up there. So I became really interested in playwriting at that one, not so much novel writing. Then I went through drama school for university and in my last year of theater school at the University of Toronto I did another playwriting class and it was taught by this incredible Canadian playwright, Janet Sears, whom I’d studied already. It was this great intimate, seven-person class that you submitted writing samples for to get in. The way she structured it was amazing. The class all bonded and we got on great. The assignment was a one-act play and we had these tutorials halfway through the term, as we were in the middle of writing, and we were just chatting and I was saying, “I’m not sure this might be two acts. I don’t know.” And she said, “With you, Adrienne if you want to just make this one act for a two-act play, I’ll let you do this. Because I think you’re really good at this and I know how much you like acting but I hope you keep writing as well.”

I’m paraphrasing but I just remember the moment. Up until that tutorial session my attitude was, “Yeah, I love to write creatively and I guess I’m good at it. But don’t we all like to write creatively?” I guess it was the first time a true professional had called me out as having some sort of skill that was at a certain level that I wasn’t aware of myself. 

FB
Those are really clear moments because of the way that you were describing coming out of the womb almost with a notebook and your dad saying, “Let’s get to it,” it was just part of who you are. But we all need that validation or that really clear moment where you see the audience responding as if somebody said, “Hey, by the way, the writer is in the audience. So make sure you laugh at these five places.” Then of course you have a professional validate your work.

AK
It was everything. I turned my focus to playwriting after that. I went to the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art and did a yearlong classical acting-specific program. After that, I tried to write some plays to direct and produce but I kept having trouble. So I decided to write a kidlet novel because I really love reading kidlit novels and it was a way to refresh my brain and completely cleanse the palate. It took a year. I’d never actually written more of a novel than 18 pages. So I kept writing and writing and writing and that ended up being my first published novel, Alex and the Ironic Gentleman. So what was supposed to be an interlude sent my career and everything about my life in a completely unexpected direction, which was being a writer of novels. 

It sounds so much like actors who accidentally become actors and get the lead in something because they looked right. I never want to give that impression as an author that I just sort of tripped into it. I think telling the history of coming out of the womb and learning how to write, it’s been in there the whole time. But it really was a sudden change of trajectory because everything in my head at that point was theater – write a play, direct a play, act in a play. Then Alex came along.

Book cover of middle grade fantasy adventure novel "Alex and the Ironic Gentleman" by Adrienne Kress.

FB
Were you writing plays about young adults at the time?

AK
No, my plays were entirely about adults. They were sort of absurdist with some shocking moments of violence in them. But I was really into absurd things and I actually did the absurdity thing in Alex and the Ironic Gentleman. It was a very classic children’s adventure, episodic adventure, very inspired by Alice in Wonderland. She has her main throughline of trying to go home but then she meets all these weird individuals and has these mini-adventures with them. I really structured the second act of Alex on Alice in Wonderland. Act One was more Roald Dahl-y and then Act Three was very Pirate-y, Peter Pan or Treasure Island. But I had gone from writing total adult stuff to even completely skipping young adult and going straight to middle grade. 

FB
You said you read a lot of kids’ stories growing up or as an adult to relax. Can you share some of those stories with us and what is it about those stories for you?

AK
I can talk about kidlit forever. I’m what’s called a reluctant reader, which is a term that wasn’t around when I was a kid, which is unfortunate because it’s tricky to be the daughter of two English teachers and not really want to read. My parents had to do everything to convince me to pick up books but when I did pick one up, I was a voracious reader. I’d read it in a day and then I’d have to read everything by that author because I trusted that I would like that author. But even as an adult, I’m sort of that same way. If I read an adult book, I’m still like, “I don’t know, man, I don’t think I’m gonna like it.” 

But growing up some of the first books that my parents really pushed on me were the Beverly Cleary Ramona books. They’re very entertaining and they’re a really easy and fun read. My dad also really loved the adventure books by Enid Blyton. Some elements don’t fully stand the test of time but I really glommed onto the adventure part of it. Then as I got a little older I got into Judy Blume. At the same time, my dad would also read to me every night, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, The Hobbit, and all The Lord of the Rings, and he did all the voices.

My dad also introduced me to The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy when I was probably 12-13, which changed everything in my brain and really introduced the notion of absurdity and that kind of humor. That’s probably been one of my greater influences. But as I got older, young adult didn’t exist as an actual named category but some books featured older protagonists that weren’t adults. But you ended up jumping to adult and there were some adult books I enjoyed. I enjoyed Michael Crichton and Agatha Christie. I enjoyed books that had really forward-moving stories. But a lot of adult books I found were depressing and the arcs that the characters go on, by the end, you’re like, “Oh, that’s sad.” 

In my last year of high school, we had an English assignment where we could compare any two books, so I chose Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan. I really dug into those and as I was writing it, I realized what I liked. The idea with these kids’ books is you’re still dealing with big issues and strong emotions. Anyone who thinks there aren’t big issues in kidlit hasn’t read any kidlit. They’re just being snobs. The emotions are the saturated colors. They’re not quite as messy. I like the saturated feelings and regardless of how dark it gets, and some of them get very dark, they always end on a hopeful note. As cynical as I can get with the world, I am, at the core, very optimistic. I believe in hope. So that’s why I love reading those books. I kept reading them after high school, like A Series of Unfortunate Events, which sounds like it shouldn’t have hope, but I was reading all of them. 

Book cover of children's novel "A Series of Unfortunate Events No. 1: The Bad Beginning" by Lemony Snicket.

FB
I was reading the first book, The Bad Beginning, at a fancy resort, and I was by the pool and this woman was sitting next to me and she goes, “What are you reading? Isn’t that for, like, elementary kids?” And I said, “No, it’s not actually. It’s amazing. You should check it out.” But she gave me so much judgment that I was self-conscious after that. I didn’t know people across the pool were going to be judging my book. But A Series of Unfortunate Events is a dark story and just brilliantly told. The whole thing that he uses with vocabulary and spelling and spelling out this is what that means, it’s so perfect for kids, but adults can also read it and go, “That’s so clever.”

AK
I think the best kids’ books and kids’ media are written and created on two levels. There’s the level of the audience it’s intended for, let’s say the eight to 12 audience. But also, especially with books versus a Pixar film, kids’ books are one of the last places where we still read out loud, where we still have an oral tradition. We don’t do it so much with adult books. I think the way audiobooks have taken off shows how much we love them. But that communal experience of somebody telling a story is rarer and rarer the older you get. When I write kidlit, I keep in mind that there’s going to be a teacher or a parent or somebody reading this to kids. I have some parent easter eggs in there, some jokes that probably the kids won’t get yet. But also when the kids come back to it when they’re 10-11 or even in their 20s, they’re like, “Oh, I didn’t get that joke at the time.” I think there’s always that nuance and depth. 

But even if there weren’t any adult jokes, there’s just some great stuff in it. If you like the book, the book is meant for you. That’s how I feel about this idea of gatekeeping ages. I actually have a more controversial opinion, which is with adult books and kids. There can be some stuff in an adult book that is intense and maybe certain kids shouldn’t read it, but there are other kids who are ready for it. As long as you’re having a conversation with them, and as long as you’re having a parent or teachers talking with the kids and working through possibly more complicated issues, I actually think that’s okay. 

FB
What Pixar does so brilliantly is that it works for kids and adults. They have that four quadrant thing they talk about in marketing, which is why Harry Potter, became the book that was in the young adult section but all adults started reading it. Then it’s okay to read this stuff. But nevertheless, you brought up Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan, both of which, on the surface, are kids’ books, but adults started reading them before any kids probably did, certainly with Alice in Wonderland. 

AK
That’s the other thing. We, in retrospect, recategorize things. For people categorizing The Outsiders as Y.A., I guess it is. I don’t know. But the young adult genre didn’t exist (when it was published). I understand the need to find places to shelve things and I think that’s important. At the same time, new adult is becoming a marketing category and there’s been a lot of conversation about how we’ve lost the category between middle grade and young adult. By putting labels on things, we can exclude things. I think that’s just something we know, in general. There’s a benefit to knowing and understanding what a category means and using that in a positive way but at the same time there are people I know who are trying to be published who have books where the characters are 13-14, or even up to 15, and we have the eight to 12 category. Even though 12 and up is the category for young adults, they want characters that are 16 plus. Because of the need to categorize, there is a wealth of books and writers that are being ignored because we don’t know where to put them on the shelf.

FB
When The Looking Glass Wars was turned down by everybody in the States, my problem was that the lead character started as seven, the next time we see her she’s 12, and then she’s 18. It was after Harry Potter and everybody said, “Well, I don’t know where this fits, and who did you write it for?” I didn’t know that there were categories. The categories were just coming into shape. 

I think the middle-grade genre or categorizing middle grade is smart because after doing a lot of school visits, those six-, seven-, and eight-year-olds are looking for somebody to aspire to who’s not a teenager. So if you have a 13-year-old character, that’s pretty spot on. And they do the lion’s share of the reading. They have more time.

AK
Yes. So you have teachers and librarians who are reading to them and introducing them to these books. We don’t have that as much in high school and we certainly don’t get opportunities as adults. I’m not a parent myself, but when people become parents, they get that opportunity again, and they get excited. “We get to go to the library and have somebody read to us.” We should have adult reading time because it’s something that’s in our DNA. We want to sit around the fire and tell stories.

John Tenniel illustration of Alice with cards around her from "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland."
Francis D. Bedford illustration of a sword fight between Captain Hook and Peter Pan from "Peter Pan".

FB
So share with us your theory on Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan, because both of these stories have been around a long time. I’m curious when you wrote your paper if you have a theory on why these stories in particular have lasted so long.

AK
I had this theory that we were dealing with two main characters, and I’m making Wendy the main character in Peter Pan, who have two completely opposite goals. Wendy’s scared of growing up, but in the end realizes she has to grow up. Whereas I think Alice is feeling frustrated by the grownups and she wants to find a place to belong as a kid. So one character is trying to figure out how to grow up in a way that pleases her and the other one is like, “No, no, I don’t want to grow up so fast. I want to stall growing up.” Even though weirdly, Wendy does want to start growing up at the beginning. 

But that question of growing up is one of the big reasons they both appeal. Because we’ve all had our own relationship with growing up. Some people are desperate to get older. I just wanted to be a kid. Teenagers scared me. They scared me when I was a teenager. They still scare me. I respect the heck out of them but they scare me. I liked being a kid and this goes back to the books I like to read. I didn’t want to read angsty teen stuff. I didn’t want to really read romances. I just wanted to read plot-driven adventures. That’s all I wanted. I definitely had desperate friends. “When can I wear makeup? When can I have a boyfriend? When can I be independent?” I think that’s very relatable in both Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan. 

Then on top of that, they’re so specific. I’ve been talking to a lot of kids lately about writing and I feel like the more specific you make a character, the more universal it becomes. You have these incredible specific characters like Captain Hook and the Queen of Hearts. These very meticulously wrought characters have very specific aesthetic features and personality traits that just spark so much imagination. On top of that, for Alice, people have always played make-believe with their cards and their chess boards, tapping into a very basic form of make-believe. Which you also get with pirates and mermaids. You get a lot of classic make-believe stuff that was also particularly popular, I assume, at the time of the original Peter Pan play. It was stuff that kids of that time enjoyed playing so that made it also relatable.

I think there are so many universal themes in both of them and then the specificity of the characters and how enjoyable they are contributes to both stories’ staying power. It’s so fun. 

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Take Your Writing to Wonderland: 7 Tips From Bestselling Authors

Writing is often a daunting proposition. Whether it’s a novel, screenplay, blog article, or even just an email, staring at that blank page can be paralyzing. Self-doubt can be demoralizing. Sometimes, it’s surprising that people can finish anything at all. How do published authors work through the pitfalls of writers to finish (and rewrite) their books?

That’s where we’re here to help. Through Frank’s years of doing comic cons, and introducing the world to The Looking Glass Wars, he’s been on numerous panels where writing is a main topic of discussion. The following article was constructed from his appearance on a panel at the 2015 Salt Lake Comic-Con (Link to Video when published), where he was part of an all-star lineup featuring some of the biggest names in Y.A. and Middle-Grade sci-fi/fantasy. These writers dished out indispensable writing advice that will help you fill up your blank page and take your writing to the next level.

Click here to watch the full video.

Jennifer Nielson

Picture of "The False Prince" author Jennifer Nielson.

“I want you to go out and I want you to find your favorite book, the book that made you want to become a writer. Get a fresh copy of that book because you’re going to destroy it. Go through the book the way a writer would read it. You’re going to highlight every single scene that you love. Then get your pen and start breaking that scene apart. Ask yourself, why does this work? What did my very favorite author do right? As soon as you can break that book apart and understand why it’s your favorite and understand what that author did right, you are going to know exactly what you want to put into your own writing to make yourself better.”

Jennifer Nielson is the prolific scribe of 17 novels, so it’s safe to say she knows what she’s talking about. Her debut, The New York Times Bestselling YA fantasy novel The False Prince, is the first book of the Ascendance Series, which follows an orphan who is trained to impersonate a missing prince. She has also written six YA historical fiction books, including A Night Divided, about a family that is separated by the Berlin Wall.

Platte F Clark

Picture of "Bad Unicorn" author Platte F Clark.

“I wrote my book, I picked up an agent very quickly, and we sold it very quickly. I think it was all because I was convinced this was a book that would never sell. I wrote it thinking, I’m just gonna write what I think would be funny for me to read to my kids, and my kids would like it and I would think it’s entertaining. I didn’t think about the industry. I didn’t think about what was popular. I wasn’t trying to emulate anything. I was actually just going to write a book and then get that out of my head. Then I knew I could write a book and then I was going to write a book that could actually get published. I think in the end, that served me the best because I wasn’t true to anything other than my own voice and what I wanted to do, and it seemed to work out well.”

Platte F Clark is the author of the middle-grade comedic fantasy Bad Unicorn trilogy. Called “deviously enjoyable” by Publisher’s Weekly, the series follows Max Spencer and his band of misfit friends as they’re hunted by a homicidal unicorn.

Frank Beddor

“My first novel, I had no experience with middle grade. I didn’t know anything about it, I was just writing. The protagonist starts off at seven, and then she’s 11, and then she’s 19. That was a big problem in selling the book but the book got published and people still read it and love it. Sometimes going in, ignorance is bliss. In my case, that happens a lot. But my advice is a little trick that I have when I’m writing and I’m into it and I have a really good scene. I don’t ever finish it. I put it down at the end of the day. So that the next morning when I start writing again, I know exactly what I’m going to start writing because I’m already in it. I know what I’m finishing and it just seems to set the whole day.”

It’s probably pretty safe to assume that, if you’re reading this, you know who Frank Beddor is. But let’s recap just to be safe. Frank is a former world champion skier who also produced the hit comedy There’s Something About Mary. His New York Times Bestselling trilogy, The Looking Glass Wars, exposes the true story of Wonderland and chronicles Alyss Heart, heir to the throne of Wonderland, as she fights to regain her crown from her evil aunt, Queen Redd. Beddor has added to the Wonderverse over the years with the Hatter M graphic novel series and the middle-grade novel, Hatter Madigan: Ghost in the H.A.T.B.O.X.

Michael Jensen

“I spent a lot of time stressing and worrying about getting my best ideas on paper. It wasn’t until I finally said, “You know what? I’m spending too much time on finding my best ideas. What effect can make my worst ideas work?” So, I started going to my worst ideas, the ones that just seemed the dumbest and stupid, and I went with them and I grew and I pushed it and I thought, “How creative can I be?” Those best ideas that I had were not as good as those worst ideas because of all the care and all the energy that I put into them. It sometimes takes stepping away from waiting for that perfect idea to show up in that moment of brilliance, and kind of just forcing yourself to be brilliant with some of the bad ideas that you already have.”

Michael Jensen is the author of Woven, a fantasy novel about a young ghost who teams with a spoiled princess to unravel the mystery of his murder and find an ancient needle with the magical power to mend that which has been torn. Publisher’s Weekly called Woven a “charming quest tale” while Kirkus Reviews deemed it a “sure bet for high-fantasy fans”.

Shannon Messenger

“I always say whatever ideas scare you the most, whichever idea feels like it’s gonna be the hardest to write, that’s usually the one. In fact, both of my series were ones where I thought, ‘I don’t know if I’m good enough to write that book.’

The note that I seem to give most often when I’m critiquing new middle-grade work is that the writer tends to forget that the kids need to be the hero of the story. I don’t just mean having a kid as the main character. I mean that you’re reading the book and things are going along, and then you get to the climax and the kid’s solution is they go to an adult, and the adult fixes things for them, and that’s the end of the story. But it’s middle grade, the kid is supposed to be the hero. How different would it have been if Dumbledore was the one who always stepped in and saved things, instead of letting Harry be the hero? I’ve even seen that in Y.A. drafts but it’s especially common when I’m reading middle-grade drafts. I see that a lot with newer writers. It’s like that adult sense steps in, and it’s not that they’ve dumbed down the writing or anything like that, but when they’re trying to figure out how to solve the plot, they rely on adults more than their kid characters. Really, really remember that you’re writing for kids. Let the kids be the hero of the story.”

Shannon Messenger is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of the Keeper of the Lost Cities series, which follows a twelve-year-old Telepath who is forced to leave her earthly home and move to the Lost Cities, where fantasy creatures of all races live. Messenger has also written the Sky Fall series, in which a seventeen-year-old wind spirit falls in love with his bodyguard and battles an evil rival.

James A. Owen

Picture of "Imaginarium Geographica" author James A. Owen.

“The best advice I could give to any writer, whether it’s middle grade, Y.A., whatever you’re writing, is to finish what you start. No one ever really writes a great book. You write a book that you then fix to make as good as you possibly can. I see so many people who are stuck in the middle of a draft, or redrafting or rewriting something and not actually finishing it. You need to finish so that you and your readers, or an editor or an agent have a sense of the entire story that you’re trying to tell. Then you have something that you can actually shape. Sometimes that shaping is small, sometimes it’s going to be huge.

I was six books into the Imaginarium Geographica series and one of my best editors at Simon & Schuster said, “There’s something that isn’t working for this, and here’s how I think we should fix it. What do you think?” And I said, “You are absolutely right.” The solution was, what was originally the prologue in that book became the epilogue and I removed a major character who was in every single chapter. I had to rewrite the entire book. It was excruciating, very excruciating. All along the way you’re giving up lines because now there are conversations that are gone and you can’t repurpose those, you can’t just replace it with another character, because he’s built into the story you’re telling. My editor was right. We could have pushed it out. I could have been a prima donna and said, “Well, this is the sixth book and you got what you’re getting and I’m going to Disneyland.” But she was right and the book was better because we made those changes. Because of those changes, the seventh book in the series, The First Dragon, was the one that was most technically flawless. I had seven lines in my editor’s letter for that book and a note that said, “Apparently, after seven books, you’ve got this down.” That’s all I got.”

James A. Owen is best known as the author of The Chronicles of the Imaginarium Geographica series, which features fictionalized versions of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and Charles Williams who find themselves in possession of a book that holds maps to the worlds of our literary heritage. Owen is also the creator of the comic book series Starchild. 

James Dashner

Picture of "Maze Runner" author James Dashner.

“When I get an editorial letter, I read it and then I take 48 hours off because I’m so depressed. I just watch movies and sit around and mope. Then usually after that 48 hours, I start to realize it’s not as bad as I first felt. Every time you just start thinking, “This is going to be the one where you get, ‘Wow, this book’s actually perfect. I don’t have any changes for you.’

I am terrible at writing advice. It’s hard for me to articulate how I write books. But one thing that always stands out to me is, and it might be obvious but, it is all about the characters. Face up and make your characters the most important thing that you throw all your devotion into. Every book I’ve ever loved is because I fell in love with and made a connection with the characters. I felt anxious to just even hear them have regular conversations. I just felt like it was there. I grew to care for them and love them. If you just have these really shallow characters and they’re all exactly the same, when they have an action scene and they die, you’d be like, “I don’t care. I hope this guy dies. He’s boring as heck.” Just setting cannot overcome weak characters. Action and suspense cannot overcome weak characters. The most beautiful prose ever written by a human cannot overcome weak characters. So really, really focus on your characters as you write your books and make people care about them.”

With over 21 million books sold, James Dashner is the author of The Maze Runner novels, a Y.A. dystopian science fiction series set in a world devastated by a succession of solar flares and coronal mass ejections. The books spawned a popular film trilogy that grossed nearly $1 billion at the box office. Dashner’s other work includes Y.A. sci-fi series The 13th Reality and The Mortality Doctrine. The Godhead Complex, the seventh book in The Maze Runner series, was released in November 2023.

Meet The Author:

An itinerant storyteller, John Drain attended the University of Edinburgh before studying film at DePaul University in Chicago and later earned an MFA in Screenwriting from the American Film Institute Conservatory. John focuses on writing mysteries and thrillers featuring characters who are thrown into the deep end of the pool and struggle to just keep their heads above water. His work has been recognized by the Academy Nicholls Fellowship, the Austin Film Festival, ScreenCraft, Cinestory, and the Montreal Independent Film Festival. In a previous life, John created and produced theme park attractions across the globe for a wide variety of audiences. John keeps busy in his spare time with three Dungeons and Dragons campaigns and a seemingly never-ending stack of medieval history books.

Alice in Wonderland: A Timeless Journey Through Generations & Pop Culture

Lewis Carroll’s “Alice in Wonderland” has, since its publication in 1865, remained an enduring touchstone in the cultural imagination. Far more than a children’s story, Alice’s tumble down the rabbit hole has been reimagined, repurposed, and reinterpreted by countless artists, filmmakers, musicians, and even political thinkers.

The very fact that the tale of a young girl’s journey through a fantastical world filled with bizarre characters can morph into a reflection of various generational ethos and societal issues is a testament to its universality. This blog explores how “Alice in Wonderland” has represented different generations and flourished in the ever-changing realm of pop culture.

Characters from Alice in wonderland sitting at a table, having tea. Alice, the Hare and the Mad Hatter.

The Victorians and the Original Alice

For the Victorians, Alice’s journey resonated with the socio-political transformations of the era. The Industrial Revolution had altered the landscape, and Alice’s navigation of Wonderland could be seen as a reflection of the tumultuous changes and the loss of innocence of the time. This generation saw in Alice a challenge to established norms, where strict societal rules were juxtaposed against the absurdities of Wonderland.

Alice and the Nostalgic Innocence of the ’50s in a Swiftly Changing World

In the 1950s, an era often viewed with a sepia-toned sentimentality as a period of post-war optimism, prosperity, and quintessential values, Alice from Wonderland emerged as an emblem of the decade’s unblemished innocence. With her classic pinafore dress, wide-eyed wonderment, and the unjaded curiosity of youth, she encapsulated the idealized child of the ’50s—a symbol of purity and simplicity amidst the shadows of a world reshaped by war. Her adventures, and misadventures, in Wonderland echoed the harmless explorations of a generation who, despite the protective bubble of post-war euphoria, had to confront a rapidly evolving landscape.

An image from the 1951 Disney cartoon version of Alice in Wonderland. The Mad Hatter is holding a teapot, pouring tea into a glass for Alice, while the Hare looks onward.

The character of the White Rabbit, perpetually anxious and always seemingly a step behind time, becomes a particularly poignant allegory for this era. His frantic proclamation, “I’m late! I’m late! For a very important date!” could easily symbolize the generation’s attempt to keep pace with a swiftly changing post-World War II society. There was a palpable rush, a need to rebuild, and perhaps, in shielding Alice’s innocence, a desire to protect the youth from the brutalities and horrors of war that had just passed.

However, as Alice delves deeper into Wonderland, the question arises: Were they already “late” with the looming specter of the Cold War? Were they inadvertently plunging into another rabbit hole of geopolitical tensions and nuclear anxieties? Alice, in all her innocence, becomes a reflection not just of individual childhood, but of a generation teetering on the edge of newfound peace and emerging global threats.

The Counter-Culture Movement and the Psychedelic 60s & 70s

Alice’s trip to Wonderland began to symbolize a different kind of trip altogether. The 1960s saw the rise of the counterculture movement, with its advocacy for peace, love, and psychedelic exploration. Songs like Jefferson Airplane’s “White Rabbit” directly drew from Alice’s narrative, equating her explorations with the mind-expanding properties of psychedelic drugs. This generation viewed Alice’s journey as a metaphor for breaking free from societal constraints and seeking deeper truths, often aided by hallucinogenic experiences.

Album cover for Jefferson Airplane's 1967 single: White Rabbit. This features a frame of traditional 1960's psychedelic artwork and fonts, surrounding the band, who is posing for a picture, wearing traditional 60's garments.

The 80’s: Nostalgia Takes Hold

The 1980s, saw a resurgence of interest in classic tales, as the post-War generation sought solace in nostalgia. Disney’s animated adaptation from 1951 found renewed popularity, and various merchandise, from clothing to toys featuring Alice and her Wonderland friends, began to flood the market. For this generation, Alice represented a return to a simpler time, a reprieve from the fast-paced world of technological advancements.

The 90s and Alice’s Tech-Laden Wonderland

In the 1990s, as technology burgeoned with the advent of personal computers and the early Internet, “Alice in Wonderland” was interpreted anew.

Our evolving relationship with technology saw Alice not just as a nostalgic figure, but as a guide through the increasingly complex digital realm. The ‘rabbit hole’ came to represent the vast, intricate web of the internet, a world with its own set of rules, mirroring Wonderland’s surrealism. Films like “The Matrix” played with this concept — drawing parallels between Neo’s red pill and Alice’s descent, both awakening to a reality (or lack thereof) hidden behind the veneer of the everyday.

The underlying anxiety of the ’90s tech surge was palpable: as we plunged deeper into the digital age, would the flood of information strip away our comforting illusions, much like Alice’s realizations in Wonderland? The fear wasn’t just of technology itself but of the potential revelations it might bring.

Image of characters from The Matrix, standing in a hallway. The White Rabbit Tattoo is visible on the woman's shoulder

21st Century: Alice in the Digital Age

The digital era, characterized by the rapid evolution of technology and the Internet’s prevalence, has presented its unique take on Alice. Video games like “American McGee’s Alice” offer a darker, more twisted version of Wonderland, echoing the complexities of the modern world. Simultaneously, movies like Tim Burton’s “Alice in Wonderland” (2010) blend nostalgia with contemporary CGI wizardry, catering to both old fans and a new generation experiencing the tale for the first time.

Online platforms like YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram see creators taking inspiration from Alice to craft content that ranges from makeup tutorials to social commentaries, reinforcing Alice’s adaptability and relevance in the digital age.

Today’s Dystopian Wonderland Mirroring Our Reality

In recent years, as global challenges have intensified—from political upheavals to environmental crises—the line between the fantastical world of Wonderland and our reality has blurred. A dystopian vision of Wonderland has emerged, one that mirrors our societal anxieties.

Shows like “Alice in Borderland” highlight a distorted, perilous version of Wonderland, where the stakes are life and death, reflecting the existential threats many feel in today’s unpredictable world. This new portrayal taps into the collective consciousness that grapples with a future filled with uncertainties. The twisted landscapes and characters of Wonderland are no longer just the whimsical concoctions of Carroll’s mind; they have become eerily reflective of our present-day society. Alice’s navigation through this challenging realm serves as an allegory for our collective attempt to find clarity, hope, and resilience in an increasingly complex and oftentimes bewildering world.

A landscape of sand dunes making up the landscape surrounding Wonderland, taken from the imagination of Lewis Carroll. illustrated by matte painter and concept artist: Brian Flora.

The Looking Glass Wars: Dystopian Wonderland as a Reflection of Our Reality

In my own work, “The Looking Glass Wars“, Wonderland is not the idyllic escape presented in the Lewis Carroll original but a reflection of our tumultuous world. The White Rabbit, reimagined as Bibwit Harte, serves not merely as a herald of oddities but as a mentor and guide through the intricate mazes of warfare reminiscent of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, coups echoing the January 6th Capitol attack, and the perplexing realms of current politics.

The juxtaposition of light and dark imagination in this retelling mirrors the dualities we face in our world: hope versus despair, unity versus division, and truth versus delusion. It’s a powerful reminder that imagination isn’t a preserve of the innocent but a tool, accessible and moldable, by both the benevolent dreamer and the nefarious schemer. Thus, cultivating and understanding one’s imagination becomes not just a flight of fancy, but a requisite for personal and collective survival.

In my retelling, Wonderland and our world aren’t separate, but intertwined through a two-sided rabbit hole – a portal where realities bleed into one another. No longer do characters need to ‘fall’ into Wonderland; they can pull its eccentricities and wonders into our realm, creating a hybridized world. It plays with the premise that Wonderland isn’t mere fiction but a tangible, intertwined reality. The tale suggests that Carroll didn’t invent Wonderland; he merely misunderstood its essence.

Today, echoes of my Wonderland can be witnessed in our reality. Its inhabitants aren’t confined to pages but are vividly present on TikTok, tweeting their peculiarities on Twitter, or snarling at awestruck fans at Comic-Con. They wander among us, with a defiant proclamation: “Wonderland is real!” It’s not just a fantasy. It’s a eye-opener, the truth needs to come out.

What is it about Alice’s tale that makes it so adaptable and relevant across generations? Perhaps it’s the blend of whimsy and depth, the mix of absurd humor and poignant reflection. Maybe it’s the universally relatable theme of a young person trying to make sense of a nonsensical world.

No matter the reason, “Alice in Wonderland” has showcased a unique ability to represent different generations, evolving in tandem with societal shifts and cultural trends. As long as, society continues to change and grow, Alice’s journey, in its myriad forms, will remain an essential part of our cultural tapestry, echoing our collective experiences, dreams, fears, and hopes.

Frank Beddor Alice in Wonderland

Why Stories Last? The Cultural Impact of Storytelling

Recently I was a guest on the podcast Legendarium with Craig Hanks—and he prompted the question “Why do stories last?” We had a wonderful conversation, which inspired this blog. Check out my conversation with Craig!

A purple text on a black background - the logo for "The Legendarium Podcast" a series with Craig Hanks, a marketer, writer and multimedia specialist.

Stories endure because they are the timeless bridges connecting us across generations, cultures, and experiences. Great stories resonate because they echo the universal truths and emotions that bind humanity together. Through tales, we navigate shared dreams, fears, and aspirations, creating a collective tapestry of understanding and connection.

These recurring themes act as a shared touchstone, reinforcing values, beliefs, and societal norms that shape culture. By revisiting these motifs, communities strengthen their collective identity and perpetuate the core principles that unite us. Understood completely or not, becomes folklore…creating a suspended debrief; a new reality for a new generation…borrowing from the past and making them their own…a form of branded history. 

It’s based upon the uniquely human capacity to classify experiences, symbolically and then to share them…the process through which an older generation induces and compels a younger generation. Cultural myth holds a paramount place in storytelling because it embodies a society’s deepest values, hopes, and understanding of the world and its origins. 

These myths offer a lens through which communities interpret their past, navigate their present, and envision their future; they provide a shared framework that binds individuals together, allowing them to derive meaning, purpose, and a sense of belonging.  

By incorporating these myths into stories, authors tap into universal truths and emotions, creating narratives that resonate deeply with readers, even transcending the original cultural context to appeal to broader audiences. Furthermore, these myths often serve as archetypes, forming the backbone for countless narratives and ensuring the continuity of cultural wisdom and tradition across generations.

The importance of realism amid such heightened realities in worlds of fantasy, (J.R.R. Tolkien most famously) makes characters, specifically heroes and their powers, when stripped away, real to an audience that wants to believe that these people really do exist. This transformation is a blurring of ‘reality’ fantasy.

The book cover for J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" with gold text on a brown, leather-looking background.

“Lord of the Rings,” endures thanks to being a timeless exploration of universal themes: the battle between good and evil, the corrupting nature of power, the value of friendship and sacrifice. Hanging its hat on the enduring hope that even in the darkest times, light can prevail.

Tolkien’s richly constructed Middle-earth, lovingly crafted over a lifetime with its own histories, languages, and cultures, provides an immersive escape for readers, yet simultaneously holds a mirror to our own world. It is a reflection of both the beauty and its flaws of our true reality. The characters’ struggles with duty and destiny are deeply relatable, reminding readers of the strength and resilience of the human (and hobbit) spirit.

As modern society grapples with complex issues like environmental degradation and the erosion of community, Tolkien’s emphasis on the sanctity of nature and the importance of unity and fellowship becomes even more affecting. The saga, in essence, is a testament to the idea that even the smallest individual can make a profound difference– a message just as valuable today as the day it was penned. It shall remain relevant in any era to come.

“Alice in Wonderland,” still resonates because it delves into the fluidity of reality, identity, and logic, themes that are ever-relevant in our constantly evolving world. Carroll’s whimsical narrative allows readers to question and challenge the conventions and norms of society, echoing the universal journey of self-discovery and the quest for understanding in an often perplexing world.

Alice’s adventures, filled with bizarre characters and absurd scenarios, mirror the unpredictable and sometimes chaotic nature of life, emphasizing the importance of adaptability, curiosity, and resilience. The story’s trancelike quality and its celebration of imagination serve as a reminder that there is magic in the mundane and that questioning the “conventional” can lead to weighty insights.

In an era where individuality, self-expression, and challenging the status quo are more celebrated than ever, “Alice in Wonderland” stands as a poignant investigation of the boundaries of reality and the infinite realms of human imagination that has been playing out for generations.

Alice still matters today. Alice in Wonderland is primarily set in an upside-down world where chaos and randomness rule and nothing makes sense to the practical, stoic little girls who found herself marooned there. The world she encounters is threatening and unfamiliar, yet she navigates it, she challenges it, she triumphs and eventually, she returns home.

A black and white pencil drawing of a child-like Alice, from "Alice in Wonderland" by Lewis Carroll.

Alice has been read by multiple generations, so it captures a large part of our shared imaginative history. People who are adept at plumbing the zeitgeist are using our shared imaginative history of the Alice story, iconography to simultaneously reflect the chaotic world we live in (fear) and marry it to the comfort and reassurance of a childhood fairytale (escape and hope).

What Alice means to me and maybe others…Alice’s journey down the rabbit hole represents escape; escape into fantasy because reality can sometimes be a prison. Alice has endured and thrived through the decades for one reason, yes, its classic literature, but it is powered by pure and fierce imagination that has bound Alice into the psyche of generations.

Imagination is the root of all creation, nothing that has ever been or will ever exist without first being imagined. Albert Einstein said, “Imagination is more powerful than knowledge.” Also, Alice is a traveler, bombarded with oddities and weirdness at every turn, but she never loses her head. (Pardon the pun)

We relate to her journey; we can channel her when the world around us begins to collapse into chaos. For too many people, today’s world is upside down, chaotic, and random. We hope to be as stoic and courageous as she is exploring Wonderland.

A person holding a book in a library. The old cover for "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" by L. Frank Baum, with pictures by W.W. Denslow. Featuring a Lion, wearing glasses.

“The Wizard of Oz” continues to resonate today because it encapsulates the timeless themes of self-discovery, the longing for home, and the realization that we often possess the strength and qualities we seek externally, within ourselves. Dorothy’s journey from the gray plains of Kansas to the technicolor world of Oz parallels the universal quest for adventure and understanding, only to recognize the inherent value and comfort of home and familiar surroundings.

The diverse cast of characters she encounters—each with their own insecurities and desires—mirror our own vulnerabilities and yearnings, emphasizing the human need for companionship, courage, love, and intellect. The story’s central message, that we often have the power within us to overcome our challenges and that the things we desire most are sometimes right where we started, remains a powerful reminder of self-worth and resilience.

In an age of endless quests for external validation and fulfillment, “The Wizard of Oz” serves as a poignant reminder that sometimes, the answers we seek are already within us.

A picture of the book cover for "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe" by C.S. Lewis. Featuring children riding a lion, encircled by Satyr or Faun holding palms.

“The Chronicles of Narnia” is relatable today as it melds profound spiritual allegories with universal themes of courage, friendship, sacrifice, and the eternal conflict between good and evil. C.S. Lewis created an immersive world where ordinary children are thrust into roles of significance, emphasizing the idea that anyone, regardless of age or background, can rise to greatness when faced with challenges.

Not only might you be “the one” – but you could be the one regardless of pre-destiny. The adventures in Narnia evoke a sense of awe, tapping into the age-old human desire to explore and belong to a world greater than our own, where the boundaries between reality and fantasy smudge. Furthermore, the struggles of the Pevensie siblings and their companions, set against the backdrop of Narnian prophecies and battles, mirror our own familiar internal and societal battles, underscoring the importance of faith, redemption, and the resilience of the human spirit. In a world where complexities continue to grow and moral compasses are continually tested, Narnia remains a beacon, reminding readers of all ages of the enduring power of hope, love, and the potential for magic in everyday life.

Original movie poster for 1977's "Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope" by George Lucas. Featuring Mark Hammil as Luke Skywalker, Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia Organa and Harrison Ford as Han Solo.

“Star Wars,” also lasts because it masterfully interweaves timeless themes of good versus evil, the hero’s journey, and the internal struggles of identity and destiny, set against the vast backdrop of a galaxy brimming with lore and wonder.

George Lucas’s vision tapped into foundational human stories, borrowing elements from ancient myths, religious narratives, and classic tales of adventure, thus grounding the space opera in a tapestry of universally recognizable motifs. The saga’s exploration of the Force—a metaphysical energy binding all living things—echoes our age-old fascination with the balance of light and dark, choice and fate, and the larger questions of purpose and interconnectedness.

Moreover, the diverse cast of characters, from farm boy Luke Skywalker to Princess Leia, and rogue Han Solo to the conflicted Darth Vader, showcases a range of human experiences, dilemmas, and aspirations, allowing viewers from varied backgrounds to find personal resonance.

In a world that often feels fragmented, “Star Wars” celebrates unity, resistance against tyranny, the power of hope, and the belief that anyone, from any corner of the galaxy, can rise to make a monumental difference.

All Things Alice: Interview with Curtis Clark (Part Two)

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a Podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on the pop culture zeitgeist. As an author that draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration. The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

It is my great pleasure to have Curtis Clark join me as my guest! Read on to explore part two of our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.

FB

You’ve had to learn the art of pitching so instead of writing all these things on spec you can take that next idea now that you have some doors to knock on and some folks to talk to. 

CC

That’s what I’ve been doing for the last couple of years. When I first became a writer, I didn’t even think about pitching. I’m not a performer. Then I go to San Diego Comic-Con with you and I’m watching you drop into this well-polished pitch with strangers who are just walking up to your booth and in 15 seconds they know what the world is. I was like, “Well, shit, now I gotta learn how to do that.” 

I was pitching Amazon the day the strike happened. We were doing it over Zoom. I would prefer to go in a room and shoot the shit like you and I are now, find something to riff back and forth on, get excited, get the notes, get out, and go to town. That’s not the way it is anymore. Now it’s over Zoom, they’re on mute and they’re gonna sit there for 30 minutes, nod their head and you’re gonna hope they’re not reading their email. It sucks. But you have to do it.

FB

It’s a lot harder to connect personally, because of the lack of proximity to each other and feeling that transference of energy that goes back and forth in a pitch, especially when it starts going well, and you’re building that momentum. 

CC

My reps will send me the mandates the studios send out, “We’re looking for this, this, and that. By the time you get to them, they don’t want that shit anymore. Honestly, where I’m at now with the way that I do development, I don’t even think about the market. You can’t time the market. You’re not going to be there when the market wants what it wants right now anyway, and so you’re almost better off trying to develop what’s not in the marketplace or what the markets aren’t buying. By the time you’re ready to go out with a project, it literally could be a year or two from when you conceived of it. Who knows what they’re gonna want? Everyone wanted Ted Lasso last buying season. Guess what? A bazillion Ted Lasso’s hit the market. So, if you’re going with Ted Lasso next year, you’re dead. It’s not gonna happen. 

Image of the coaching staff from the Apple TV+ series: Ted Lasso. With characters left to right: Coach Beard, (Brendan Hunt), Ted Lasso (Jason Sudeikis) and Roy Kent (Brett Goldstein).

FB

But in five years, it might be perfect timing. Your script, Run, could fall right into place. It’s unknowable.

CC

I have a project right now that is a deep-cover espionage story set within the Alt-Right. It’s already a tough subject matter. It’s a limited series. The script is great. Probably the best writing I’ve ever done. It hasn’t left the shelf because the timing is not good. January 6 is still in everybody’s mind.

FB

It’s too close. 

CC

But by the time it got made it would be two or three years from now. So, who knows? It’s so tough that way. For me, the feeling of it being such a strong sample is that even if it doesn’t sell, it’s going to do good things for me. Well, I don’t want to hear that when we’re not able to send the script out. So, you’re telling me I have this possible golden ticket in this drawer, but “Hey, just keep it in your wallet for a little bit longer, pal.”

FB

Well, isn’t that why you’re writing a graphic novel? Tell me what your what you’re working on.

CC

There are two things I’m working on right now. One is this graphic novel called Ender’s that I co-created with this guy named Nathan Reed. It’s essentially about contract killers for the dead. It’s about this guy named Ender Endless and he’s given a second chance by Death, which is more of an entity and not a person. Death isn’t good or bad death, it’s a construct. So, they go around the world and they end Wayward Souls, people whose souls refuse to leave Earth because they were wronged or their lives were unjustly taken. The job of Ender is to either satisfy the Wayward Soul by being possessed by them and empowered, then go and take care of the guy who unjustly killed them. Or if that soul festers too long on Earth, they’ll manifest in flesh as monsters. They’re ticking time bombs and the whole point is they gotta keep Death’s books clean. Death doesn’t care if they go up or down river, just as long as there aren’t too many of these Wayward Souls on Earth because then a living death could happen where the dead rise. The story isn’t about a zombie apocalypse. That’s the White Walkers of the story. It follows Ender Endless and the discovery of who he was because he has no memories from his life.

I love the tone of comic books because you get action and you get quippiness, and you get funny stuff. But with the modern indie books and the movement that comics have been on in the last 30 years, the writing’s gotten so much better. It’s TV-quality writing. You get to do a lot of drama. We’re talking to an artist who was nominated for a Hugo and we like him because my biggest thing is how well the artist gets their characters to act. He has a traditional style, but his characters are very expressive. I love expression in comics because it’s fun. So hopefully we can get him. I’ve written the first two issues and I’m gonna write three more on the contract. Then, if it’s successful, I’ll probably write more of it.

FB

So, you’re doing individual issues, you’re going to release those first, in very traditional terms, 23-26 pages?

CC

We’re doing it the way Image does it because that’s the publisher we want to approach. You did the first Hatter comic through Image. It’s creator-owned so we’ll get to keep the immediate rights to it. The idea would be to single issue publish the first five issues and then Image would collect it as a trade paperback and sell it that way. That’s how they make their money. That’s the route we want to go. But we have to get an artist on board and we’ll do the first five pages with the couple of scripts, and then we’ll talk to publishers that way. We’re not going to spend all the money doing the art for all five books if we don’t have a publisher.

Part of the pivot is because I couldn’t sell that in Hollywood if there wasn’t a comic book first. The market is too risk-averse. If you have original ideas, you’ve gotta go to a different medium first. It’s the same reason I’m writing a novel now. If I were to write that as a spec script, there’s no way in hell it’d get made as a $100-120 million epic that’s not based on anything. So, I have to write it as a book.

FB

But at the same time, it’s deeply satisfying to write and create something and have it be a thing, whether it’s a book or a comic book. If it turns into a movie, that’s great. But, when I wrote The Looking Glass Wars, I was like, “Okay, if this could just be a book, and certainly the first comic, will people even look at this?” Once I got Ben Templesmith for the first comic, I thought, “Oh, people will see it and want to check it out because of Ben Templesmith.” It’s similar to Hollywood. But the thing I realized that was so satisfying is, no matter what happened, I haven’t made anything out of The Looking Glass Wars and it’s been 20 years, but I don’t care. I love the world and the sandbox I play in every day.

Book cover for Frank Beddor's "Hatter M: Far From Wonder, Volume One" with co-authors: Liz Cavalier, Ben Templesmith, and Sami Makkonen. The main character is standing in an archway, throwing his blade-rimmed hat into a brawl between police and workers.

CC

That’s the thing for me, especially for the first book, that it’s just gonna be me and the audience. I have to get a publisher in place. My reps and I are putting the submission together. I’ve written the first 20,000 words, the first five chapters, and there’s a prologue. I’ve had the prose evaluated – it walks and talks like a book and it’s done pretty well, in terms of the quality of the writing. But the thing I’m excited about is that it’s not going to take 150 people and $600 million. It’s not even going to require the input costs of a graphic novel.

FB

I just wrote a blog post today about the editor, Cally Poplak whom I met 20 years ago when Egmont in the UK published my book. I was really struck by her editorial letter, which was incredibly extensive. She said she had the pruning pencil, and she had something for all 358 pages of the book. It was completely daunting and whenever I go to schools, I show some of the pages. It’s the only time the English teachers get excited.

CC

For me, it goes back to that unicorn thing. When I first read Frank Herbert’s “Dune,” I assumed that the book went from his mouth to the page. You often don’t think about the role an editor has in getting the story to that place. So that gave me confidence, knowing that I don’t have to be perfect.

Book Cover for Frank Herbert's "Dune", featuring a cartoonish night sky, with 2 moons and multiple waves of sandy dunes in red, yellow and orange hues.

FB

But you mentioned Frank Herbert and basically, all people named Frank who write are pretty natural and don’t have to work that hard at it.

CC

And all people named Curtis are donkeys. But with editors, they’re not trying to do what writers do when they read, which is, “This is what I would have done.” They’re trying to make it work.

FB

My editor said, “This is your book, and if you don’t want to take this on, don’t take this on. These are really suggestions.” She was so smart in giving me ownership and having great editorial advice and ideas but never losing the thread that this was my book.

CC

It’s way different than Hollywood.

FB

That’s the whole point. It’s not just about writing a book so I can get a $150 million movie made. It’s writing a book because it’s an amazing experience and it’s mine. No matter what happens, it comes from my mind and my imagination. Then if what was in your head translates to the reader, and the reader tells you, that will blow your mind. Then they dressed up as characters and then they got tattoos and you’re like, “Okay, how did that happen?”

CC

I have one character in the book that if anybody gets a tattoo, I know exactly who it will be. But I can’t spoil that character because he’s fun. But I agree with everything you’re saying. It’s the most fun writing, in some ways, that I’ve ever had because I’m not thinking about anyone other than myself. Whereas when you’re writing a comic, you’re thinking of the artists. When you’re writing for television or film, you’re thinking about the executives and a million other things you don’t want to think about, but you have to.

I had this discussion with my friend Brian Hanson, who has an MFA and has directed movies. I was like, “I have an unpopular opinion, I actually think prose is easier than screenwriting.” He goes, “You’re out of your mind.” But I said, “No when you’re writing prose, you get to do all the jobs. You’re the sound designer, you’re the actor, you’re the director, you’re the writer. You get to write all the senses. The issue with screenwriting is people overwrite way too much because they’re not used to the economy of words. It puts you in a box. It was liberating to do prose. I’m not saying I’m great at it, but I had a great time doing it. Also, the way you can get yourself out of trouble and make a scene work is so much different because you have the character’s thoughts, whereas with a screenplay, absolutely not, unless you do a voiceover.

FB

As you said earlier, all three, prose, screenwriting, and comic books are very different. All three require a different skill set. I would imagine that when you finish this book and you’re on your fourth book, you’ll look back at that first book and go, “Wow, I could have done such a better job.” I certainly feel that way. But you’re in the moment and you have the skill set that you have and you have the imaginative power that you have. You create the thing, you put it out there, and you hope people receive it in the way that you intended.

CC

It’s called Paragons, but I don’t know when it’ll come out.

FB

And you’ve written 20,000 pages and tell us, is it Y.A., is it adult?

CC

It’s the older end of Y.A. Ages 14-17.

FB

How many pages? What are you thinking for word count?

CC

It’ll probably be close to 100,000 words. I know a lot of Y.A. is around 80,000 words but for a lot of Science Fiction Fantasy, you tack on some words because of the world-building. So, I’m shooting for somewhere between 80,000 and 100,000 words.

FB

Yeah, I’d say 80,000 words is a very good mark.

CC

We had a conversation about this book and I still take some of the things you said to me and have built them into how I’m building the world in terms of the age of the protagonist and making sure that all of the “good stuff,” is in the first book, meaning you only have one chance to hook them. I’m trying to be as aware as I can be from a seasoned writer’s perspective and knowing what I know from being in Hollywood, but to your point, this is the first time I’ve written a novel.

FB

It really falls on the prose. With a screenplay, you can have somebody rewrite it. With comics, the art can be the thing that shines and people will buy it. But with prose, it’s absolutely the words on the page.

CC

I wrote a test chapter because I was worried about if I could even do it. I was having full-blown impostor syndrome because I’ve done screenwriting and that translates pretty easily to comic books, but prose is a different animal. So, I did the first chapter and the feedback was, “What’s gonna happen next?” I thought that was a sign I should write what happens next.

FB

That’s very funny because my editor said to me, “Frank, you’ve clearly done all of the research. You clearly have this whole world in your head. You clearly know what their backstory is. But the readers don’t really care. They only want to know about what happens next.” That one stung a little bit.

CC

It’s like the City of Gods pilot I wrote. There was so much, “Check out all this cool stuff in this world that I’m going to do.” Then the feedback was, “Hey, man, that’s exposition.”

FB

I thought that was a really cool world. You might want to revisit that.

CC

I’ve thought about it. But the thing I got was that Greek mythology is a little dusty. That’s the word they like to say. Then the next thing you know, Dan Harmon is doing a Greek gods adult comedy.

FB

It depends on who’s writing it. When Frank Scott did The Queen’s Gambit and started with the young girl version for the entire pilot and then cut ahead in the second episode, it was a revelation. “Oh, you can do that?! I’m gonna revisit The Looking Glass Wars.”

Book Cover for "Hunger Games" by Suzanne Collins. Image features the title and author on a black background with a golden sparrow holding a shield and arrow in an attack formation.

CC

Meanwhile, Alyss starts when she’s a kid and then becomes a teenager. The one thing I’ll say about the transition from screenwriting to prose that I do think is somewhat beneficial is the knowledge of structure. You were the one who sent me The Hunger Games. Suzanne Collins is a screenwriter and every single one of those chapters is – cliffhangers like hell. So, of course, the reader is compelled to read the next chapter. Next thing you know, you’ve read the book in three days. Anytime someone tells you, I read this book in three days, you think, “Oh, that’s good.” Hopefully, I’ll be successful in baking that into my style, where, because of my screenwriting background, it’s well-paced with good cliffhangers.

FB

I think people describe my book, the people that liked it anyway, as being very cinematic as well as a page-turner, which was really important. It’s something I focused on because, with middle-grade kids or young adults it’s so important to engage them and to continue that engagement.

CC

My biggest concern with what I’m doing with this book is that I may have aged up too much. I’ll be curious to see what happens when we go to publishers. If they say, “Hey, this is written a little too old.” It’s written at about a seventh-grade reading level, which is the target reading level for casual prose, but the worry is that it’s coming from the mind of an adult too much. I’m a little worried about that part of it.

FB

It depends on the vocabulary you’re choosing, but it’s not knowable until you put it out there. I didn’t know that there were children’s publishers, Y.A. publishers, and middle-grade publishers when I wrote The Looking Glass Wars, which is why if I had known that I wouldn’t have had a seven-year-old, 13-year-old, and 18-year-old in the same damn book. But that was the way I saw the story so I just wrote it and then I got passed on all over the place until Cally came along.

CC

But then it became a New York Times bestseller, so I guess it proves you correct.

FB

Thanks to my editor.

I want to talk about influences and imagination. In your bio, it says that you “spent your youth spun up in a tornado of comics, novels, films, television, and games.” In terms of your style of writing, and in terms of your choices of stories to tell, what were your top influences?

CC

I read tons of sci-fi and fantasy: Ray Bradbury, Dune, Neuromancer, Dungeons and Dragons novels, Magic the Gathering novels, Asimov, and Philip K. Dick. I really liked this series called Coldfire Trilogy by Celia Friedman. That was a different take on fantasy because it was human beings landed on another planet and our technology didn’t work, so we’re forced to go back to a feudal situation. I like that kind of setup. Those books really inspired me, but I read them when I was a teenager. I was doing this stuff when I was five.

I have older cousins named Travis and Rob and they took me on a Dungeons and Dragons campaign at our cottage in Fife on Lake Michigan when I was like eight years old, I begged them to do it. It was amazing. I couldn’t believe I got to make a character and they were in the story. My cousin was the one telling me the story. John August, the writer, does a podcast with Craig Mazin, and someone asked him, “My kid is interested in writing. What should I do? What’s the best thing I could do?” His answer was, “Have him play Dungeons of Dragons.” You’re in charge of the story and it’s also social so your kids aren’t alone all the time. They have an audience in front of them to interact with. So, I played Dungeon and Dragons, Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf the Apocalypse, and Shadowrun, the second version, which is one of my personal favorites. I played other fantasy games like Harp and then Magic the Gathering, which is a little bit like The Looking Glass Wars because it also has fantasy elements, science fiction elements, steampunk elements, and cyberpunk elements blended together. It’s big, broad worlds that go between different planes of existence. Those were the big influences.

In terms of comics, I grew up reading my older brother Peter’s comics, and God, I got lucky. That was the Chris Claremont X-Men run, which is the Dark Phoenix Saga and The Morlocks. I got to read a bunch of that stuff, which really affected me. Zany books like Groo the Wanderer and the Marvel What the–?! books. I read a bunch of really bad comics in the 90s. It wasn’t a great time for comics, to a degree. But that’s where it all came from.

Marvel Comics "X Men" by Stan Lee. This is the 30th anniversary of the Fantastic Four cover, featuring virtually every X-Men Character that existed at the time.

FB

So, a serious nerd-dom coming out of farm life in Michigan where you got inspired because you’re reading Magic the Gathering and Dungeons and Dragons novels alongside some of the great sci-fi writers in history.

CC

I’m not equating them as being as good.

FB

But you can go back and forth. That’s a love of it. That’s a love of the world creation aspect of it.

CC

There are some great stories out there. Final Fantasy VII has a storyline that follows a character named Cloud Strife and the bad guy’s name is Sephiroth. It’s this really crazy epic about cloning but when I was playing that game, when I was 10-11 years old, I’d never seen this type of story before. Even though maybe there was a better version of that story somewhere else, it got to me through games. You look at all the stuff that’s being made in television now and you can see all of these people were influenced by their childhoods in the 80s and 90s. Some of that is through gaming. Look at how successful gaming movies have become.

Video Game Cover Art for Final Fantasy VII. Originally released on Playstation 2. White background of a guy holding a large sword, looking towards a castle in the far distance.

FB

Finally, there are writers who understand how gamers see the worlds they interact with.

CC

It took a while for the industry to take those stories seriously but, moving forward, that’s going to be a huge part of movies because the gaming industry makes more money than movies do.

FB

Which is why I think Netflix is trying to get into the game business and probably Amazon as well, but it’s a different animal. I think they will have a hard time. Again, it comes down to creators who have unique visions. I gotta give it to Warner Brothers and Mattel for creating Barbie and letting Greta Gerwig run with that thing, make it her own, and transform the business. It’s pretty remarkable to have that movie alongside Oppenheimer.

CC

The thing about Oppenheimer is, you have to go see Christopher Nolan movies because he’s a writer/director and a lot of his films are original. I know, Oppenheimer is historical, but I’ll go see any Christopher Nolan movie because it’s creator-owned, based on his original idea. But with Barbie, what a bet. Now hopefully, they realize it’s not a bad way to do it. Look at Phil Lord and Chris Miller, though. They were probably the only ones who had that take on The Lego Movie, where at the end, you find out the kid was playing with the dad’s Legos. Holy shit, you’re telling me that’s what’s been going on the entire time!? That was all in a kid’s mind. I’ve watched my son, who’s five years old, do the same thing. He’s basically doing The Lego Movie. Lord and Miller had the smartest take you ever could have had on that movie.

Still image of hand-drawn characters from "Spiderman: Across the Spider-Verse" with Miles Morales as the main focal point of the image.

FB

That was genius. I love Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse and Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse. Those two movies, the way they were expanding the Spider-Verse was really inspiring. That’s something I wanted to just touch on a little bit because I’m looking to refresh and reset The Looking Glass Wars and we’ve had a lot of conversations about time travel and how time travel could play itself in this world. I had a template for the stories that I wanted to create first and then the last two were with you, Crossfire and Underfire. Now that there’s been a few years I’ve started thinking about time travel and multiple dimensions and the multiverse, and how I might be able to reintroduce Hatter through a portal that’s not just into the time in which he’s living but fractures off into different times and different storylines.

How do you see time travel in fiction, in graphic novels, or in movies? What is your take on the most effective way to use time travel in storytelling?

CC

The answer is very carefully because it’s an absolute can of worms. They can do something to the stakes, which you see in the Marvel movies, for example. Now, suddenly, “What really matters?” When you do time travel, you have to create a set of rules that don’t undermine your stakes, and you have to create a set of rules that, when you’re done with time travel, you’re done with time travel. Because if it’s always there, nothing matters. You have to create a moment in time in your world, it can be for 10-15 years, but you have to know before you start how you’re going to button it up correctly because nothing is worse than when time travel comes in and jumps the shark.

If done correctly, it’s great. My favorite time travel thing is in Looper when Bruce Willis says to Joseph Gordon Levitt “I don’t want to sit here and talk about fucking time travel! We’re gonna be here with abacuses and whiteboards.” That’s the whole point. The second you start to explain time travel, some nerd like me will go, “No, I don’t think so. This actually doesn’t work.” You need to use it in a fun way. Where it’s like, “Hey, we’re doing time travel. Okay? But we’re not doing this forever and the things that you’ve watched before still matter.”

Otherwise, it’s like the first season of Westworld in which they just kept killing these people and the people kept coming back. Why do we even care? It’s the same reason why they finally have stopped bringing Jean Grey back for a while in X-Men. She’s gonna die, but it doesn’t matter and she’s just gonna come back. It’s like a soap opera that way. You have to be really, really careful with the way you do it because your audience deserves that the things they read before still matter,

FB

That is why I like Quantum Leap, Doctor Who, or 12 Monkeys. All three of those did a really good job in terms of using the time travel device to keep the stakes fresh and allow an expansion of the story. Then it’s about how clever you are inside of the device of the time travel.

FB

You introduced all the Card Soldiers characters in Crossfire and Underfire, where did you get the inspiration for those? You have some really great characters in there.

CC

We talked a little bit about G.I. Joe, but honestly, I really viewed it like a game. So, to me, it’s a class system. In Dungeons and Dragons there’s knights, wizards and sorcerers, rogues, and that kind of thing. So, we have a pickpocket. We have an explosives expert. A lot of times, when you’re dealing with a Dirty Dozen-type scenario, these people are going to have, at least for the first story, a dominant personality tick, because you’re not going to get the underbelly of all of them. We don’t know why Gamble loves explosives. We don’t know why Engels was in jail. We didn’t why the character Rue, who didn’t make the team, was a pickpocket.

Character art by Curtis Clark, done for Frank Beddor's graphic novel and book series: "The Looking Glass Wars". This image features 7 of the characters, hand-drawn on white paper.

One of the things that we talked about before was my favorite character that I’ve made for your world, and Ovid is probably the one, but there’s this guy named Yonnish, who’s a linguistics expert in the House of Cards. I’m weirdly fascinated by that guy. No idea what he is. He’s just a throwaway gag in the book but I’m thinking, “What if that guy’s the hero of our story?” What if he goes to Morgavia and gets all the cultural norms and saves the day?

FB

That’s funny that you say that because there are two characters in The Looking Glass Wars, two Wonderlanders. They fall into the Pool of Tears, never to be heard from again. I was like, “Oh, I should write a story about those two.”

A lot of times I feel in the stories I’ve told there’s a big canvas and lots of rules and lots of logic that has to get dealt with to keep the story moving. I like those things, but those are there already, now I can drop into the personal, internal stakes and find ways to externalize those.

CC

Speaking of all these other characters, whatever happened with Hellia?

FB

That’s a very good question. It’s a book that was not released so I’m not opposed to talking about it. That has a big-time travel aspect of it, as well, because basically, it turns out that Redd had a child, Hellia, that she thought she had lost in childbirth. We meet Hellia at 18 and she does not know she’s the heir to Redd and that if Alyss had never come back, she would be ruling Wonderland. At the same time that’s happening, she’s starting to come into these powers. It’s her story of figuring out how she can send somebody back in time to kill or trap Hatter and Alyss in our world so the outcome of her life will be different.

CC

It’s The Terminator.

FB

It is. I finished the book and I’ve been trying to decide what to do with it. There’s a lot of rewriting that has to happen. But it’s a cool idea. You’re taking the antagonist and turning her into a protagonist by the end or at least you’re showing the evolution.

CC

It’s one of those great antagonistic motivations, where, in her mind, she believes she’s right.

FB

To a degree, she is right. Her mother was not a good person. But everybody is the hero of their own story, and she’s the hero of her own story. Curtis, thanks a lot for forcing me to divulge a storyline that I’ve been sitting on for a very long time.

Tell me what you hope to do next. I hear the CEOs are talking and Netflix is getting involved in trying to resolve this strike. So, fingers crossed that we’ll be out there pitching and complaining about executives but making stuff happen. In the meantime, I’m gonna be working on some graphic novels. I know you are. Are you writing any television specs or pilots to be ready for when the strike’s over?

CC

I’m focusing on the non-Hollywood stuff right now. I have four Hollywood projects that are all gonna go back live again after the strike. I have an adult animated comedy called “Down Here” that I have with this company called Mindshow. That was the one I was pitching to Amazon the day the strike happened. We’ll finish up all those pitches. I have the hour-long drama set within the Alt-Right. I have a Hallmark Christmas pitch, I never thought I’d say that, but it doesn’t have to be Hallmark. I won’t pitch it here but it’s a fun idea.

FB

But Hallmark is great because they produce a lot of movies. I have a lot of friends who go in for the quick paycheck. There’s a quick turnaround. They have a set template for what they want. They do a lot of holiday movies.

CC

Then I have the crime drama as well, which we were already talking to investors and distributors about, that we’re trying to shoot back in Michigan. So, I have all that stuff going on. But also, the industry is so upside down right now, that I don’t really want to invest my time on something like that until I know what I’m looking at. So, it’s Enders, it’s the graphic novel that hopefully we’ll have packaged up and ready to go to publishers with the artist in tow and I’ll finish the other three remaining scripts. That will be on the front burner and then also the novel Paragons as well. I also have a kids’ show because I have children. I think everybody tries their hand at a kid show once they have kids. But I want to try my hand at some of the non-Hollywood stuff just because Hollywood is frustrating.

FB

The stuff you can actually get produced and share is deeply satisfying.

I find it really interesting how you’ve turned your childhood and your experience in pop culture into a job. I think a lot of folks who are artistic, whether it’s drawing or writing, they’re like your dad, “You’ll be back in two weeks. How do I make a living?” There are so many ways, ultimately, to make a living and a lot of what this podcast has to say is about that.

When I say All Things, Alice, I think now it’s All Things Imagination, and Alice is a muse for all of us. Many of us, in some way or another, are all just following, running, hoping to, you know, create our own rabbit hole and our own Wonderland.

CC

The thing with Alice in Wonderland is Lewis Carroll kind of got there first. All the stuff that I was playing with and reading as a kid, it’s all influenced by Lewis Carroll. It’s all about the book from 1865. The entire fantasy genre and most of the children’s genre was changed forever by that book. I don’t know if he did it first, but he made it popular.

FB

Well, on that, thank you. And we’ll talk soon, my friend. Great chatting later.

CC

Sounds good. Thanks for having me, Frank.

Check out Part 1 of Frank’s interview with Curtis!

For the latest updates & news about All Things Alice, please read our blog and subscribe to our podcast!

20 Years Through the Looking Glass: A Tribute To a visionary Editor and Agent

Greetings, Wonderlandians and literary aficionados! As I stand at the precipice of time’s ever-turning pages, I mark a momentous occasion. Two decades have flown since a fateful encounter with a guiding star, my editor, Cally Poplak of Egmont Books – the true White Queen of editorial wisdom. It took a mere year under her meticulous gaze for my narrative to transform from a manuscript into a published book.

Author, Frank Beddor, signing copies of his first edition hardcover book: The Looking Glass Wars, sitting at a desk with a stack of books, a telephone and a fax machine.

In the sprawling labyrinth reminiscent of Wonderland’s enigmatic pathways, Cally emerged as my beacon. In an era dominated by traditional notions, her decision to champion the voice of an American storyteller seemed as audacious as challenging the Red Queen to a game of chess.

The rejections from American publishers stacked up, much like the mysterious riddles of Wonderland’s denizens. Yet, it was Cally’s unwavering faith that guided my story out of the shadows.  Her words have always held a touch of magic, a dash of praise that ignited confidence and propelled me to push boundaries. With a keen eye for perfection, she knew how to nudge me in the direction of my best work.

From Cally’s first editorial letter:

“Keep in hand my letter of Sept. 8th, 2003, to remind you of all that is brilliant about this exceptional script and keep in mind the fact that this is your book, Frank, so you should only accept suggestions that are in tune with your vision, your voice. I am just a perfectionist who wants to ensure the book we publish for you is the best it can possibly be, and I do think I can push you a little further. Also, you did mention wanting a hands-on editor…”

Frank Beddor and Cally Poplak, standing in an antique shop, looking at copies of Frank's book: The Looking Glass Wars, that is for sale in the shop. There are vintage Christmas decorations up around the mostly stained wood walled shop.

With that began our illustrious journey, draft after draft, passage by passage, line by line, under the meticulous scrutiny of Cally’s ever-pruning pencil. But one remark, sharp as the Jabberwocky’s tooth, still stands out even after two decades, a gentle jibe that stung, yet was irrefutably true:

“It is evident that you have done an enormous amount of research for the story and that you have an entire world in your head and the backstory for each character. But, be tough on yourself, Frank: are you including a piece of information because it moves the story on or because it’s an opportunity to demonstrate the depth of your research?” Then, with a blow softened only by its accuracy, she continued, “The research and back-stories are what give your fantasy its integrity and authority, forming its invisible foundations but, to be brutally honest, when immersed in a book, the reader DOESN’T CARE ABOUT THE HARD WORK YOU PUT INTO WRITING THE STORY. They just want to know what happens next.”

Her words, though a jolt to my pride, were a necessary awakening. It was through such honest feedback that Cally helped shape not just a manuscript but this wanna-be author’s understanding of his audience. “Show, don’t tell. Let your splendid characters and actions assert themselves. Trust them, Frank,” she would often emphasize.

Reflecting on this Looking Glass journey, I tip my top hat to mentorship, to champions who dare to dream beyond the ordinary, and to visionaries like Cally who see potential in the heart of creator’s imagination. More than an editor, she was the guiding North Star, leading a tale from the wilds of Wonderland to the hearts of readers.

Author, Frank Beddor, with a group of people, posing for a photo. He is joined by characters from Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, and some kids holding up copies of his book, The Looking Glass Wars.

Our journey was a collaborative dance, a beautiful synchronization of creativity and meticulous editing. Cally’s hands-on approach was exactly what I needed – a partner who shared my dedication to excellence and a mentor who was unafraid to push me further. Her faith in my potential, her unwavering encouragement, and her ability to see the story’s essence were the driving forces behind the book’s enduring impact.

Having pruned all 358 pages of The Looking Glass Wars, Cally’s editorial letter delivered the pitch perfect closing paragraph:

“Frank, this letter may seem overwhelming, but an awful lot of my comments are very minor line edits (and this is a long script) and NOTHING IS MANDATORY. Don’t feel you have to explain any suggestions you don’t want to take on board, but let’s talk once you have had time to digest everything. Also, I hope you notice all the ticks marking favourite passages. If I’d listed those, too, the letter would have been twice as long. So, congratulations once again. I am longing for all my colleagues to read the final script, because I know they’ll be as dazzled as I am, and then the really important people – your future fans.”

In the tapestry of my literary journey, Cally-the-pedant, and her pruning pencil

remain irreplaceable, and as I type these words, my heart swells with an immeasurable depth of gratitude for her involvement, forever altering the course of my narrative life.

But before Cally Poplak, there was Barbara Marshall, my agent — the indomitable force from the city that never sleeps, who took London by storm. Her energy was quintessentially New Yorker – bold, relentless, and always a step ahead. I sometimes wondered if she had an internal compass that unerringly pointed toward success, or perhaps just an innate knack for sensing where the next big opportunity lay.

Frank Beddor and his agent, Barbara Marshall, standing in front of a store named: Lewis Carroll's Alice's Shop - The Old Sheep Shop. They are standing next to a life-sized cutout of Alice from Alice in Wonderland and holding up a copy of Frank's book: The Looking Glass Wars.

Barbara was never one to back down. In the daunting maze of the publishing industry, she was my guide, my advocate, and my unwavering champion. Securing that pivotal meeting with Cally was no mere stroke of luck; it was Barbara’s foresight and tenacity.

Her expertise truly shone during the negotiation phase with Egmont, one of the U.K.’s publishing stalwarts. While they held firm on certain clauses, Barbara’s adept navigation ensured that our interests were never sidelined. Her comforting note to me during these intense discussions: “Not to worry. They have their standard clauses, and we have our particular requirements and we will find a way through it.” And find a way, she did.

Barbara not only secured for me one of the most significant advances Egmont had ever awarded at the time, but she had another ace up her sleeve. Unbeknownst to me, she had also kindled interest from two other publishing companies. Her ability to keep multiple irons in the fire while ensuring the best possible outcome for her client is a testament to her unparalleled proficiency.

And oh, the bidding war! With the success of our Egmont deal as her rallying banner, Barbara orchestrated a masterclass in negotiation, pitting giants Penguin and Random House against each other for US. Rights. To say Barbara is a mere agent is an understatement. She’s a friend, a visionary, a trailblazer, and above all, a fierce guardian of her authors’ dreams.

To these incredible women who championed my vision, my tales, and the world of Wonderland I wanted to share, I tip my hat. Our collective journey mirrors the adventures of Wonderland: unpredictable, thrilling, and utterly transformative.

Cally Poplar, Frank Beddor and Barbara Marshall, standing together on a dock, in front of a river, under some green trees.
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