As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have video game developer Stan Just join me as my guest! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.

Frank Beddor 
Welcome to the podcast Stan Just. Thanks for being on the podcast. It’s always exciting to talk to another creative person who has been inspired by Alice in Wonderland. But I'm particularly interested in games because when I first started writing my books and I went to comic book conventions, people would always say, “We've read all of your books, but what are you going to do?” So I had the idea of doing a game, but, this was so long ago, it was in Flash. A lot of people came to it but I didn't know I could monetize it with microtransactions or anything. So it cost me a fortune. People were really happy but I didn't make any money. Then Flash disappeared two years later and all that work went for naught. Since then I've had a keen financial eye watching how people put games together and monetize them. 

Stan Just
I've had a similar experience with my first game that went out last year. We spent a lot of money and effort on it but, all in all, it didn't pay it out. Not many people bought it.

FB
I hear it's pretty tough. I also had an agent for a while who worked exclusively in games. This was probably 15 years ago. My book was first published eighteen years ago and we went to all of the Activisions of the world. I would get in the room and I would pitch a vision of what I thought the world could be in the game. In the room, people seemed really engaged but at the end of the day, if there wasn't a movie first, they weren't interested. They would say, “Come back to us as soon as you have a deal with Warner Bros. I thought, “Well, once I have a Warner Bros. movie, what do I need you for?” Warner Bros. Games would have probably wanted to buy it. It’s hard to be independent out there.

SJ
Absolutely. It's very difficult to be publishing games right now.

FB
Let’s talk about your game though. I'm gonna get into your history. I want to hear about your work on The Witcher games. I’m a big fan of the TV show. 

You're the CEO of your company. It's called Covenant.dev. Tell us about the inspiration behind your upcoming game To the Star. 

SJ
It's a survival adventure game that is aimed to support cooperative gameplay for up to four players. It’s a game in which players explore a whimsical fantasy realm inspired by Alice in Wonderland and The Little Prince, craft bizarre objects in their private dimension, and fight incredible creatures on their way to the star. The initial inspiration and the initial idea kind of came out of the blue. I was thinking about a game that would have a relatively simple main objective. This main objective was the spark. It’s inspired by the notion of a star falling on your planet and you want to get to it and uncover the story behind it. So that was the initial idea. 

It evolved after a few months. We were exploring what the star will be. What kind of environment or what kind of a planet did it hit? Is it Earth? Maybe it could be something different? That led me to be inspired by this literature and led me to answer the question of what the star is. We decided to go more fantasy. It won't be a comet or asteroid or something like that. It will be more whimsical, more fantastical. There’s a character on the star and that character has a story. I don't want to spoil too much but he comes from a different planet and he crash lands on our planet. Again, our planet is not normal. It's more whimsical because whimsicality is something cool and intriguing. It gives us the opportunity, as the creators, to do something new, to do something crazy, to do something surreal. It’s easier to surprise the player. If the game was set on Earth, it would be more grounded and more boring in the sense that people would have seen it all before. There's not much room for surprise. So it was, let's take the story of The Little Prince for the character on that piece of a planet that fell on our planet. He traveled some ways across the galaxy. He has a story of his own. 

FB
Let me ask you about combining genres. You have a fantasy, you have sci-fi, and you have Earth which is very grounded. So when you start to put those pieces together, how do you find a tone that feels consistent in terms of the gameplay and storytelling? Because, from my creative process and experience blending different genres, if it feels fresh and grounded enough that it's not just random, then you feel like you've come up with something new that people can relate to. But if you combine too many things, they bump up against each other and then it doesn't feel like a new form. 

SJ
I absolutely agree. If you mix too many things, it just becomes an unattractive blend. You need to be very careful about the believability of the world and the believability of your creation. For example, the sci-fi aspect is very, very limited. When you say “sci-fi”, many people think of technology and spaceships and lasers. We don't have any of that. For example, the vehicle the character is on when he crashes on your planet is not a spaceship. It's just a fragment of earth. There's no technology there. The player doesn't have the feeling of, “This is a sci-fi technology kind of thing. It’s rather a fairy tale, whimsical thing.” 

That’s the most fun part, creating a believable world that is different, and whimsical, so the player can believe in this fantasy and be immersed in the atmosphere. Even though there are crazy things happening, it is all within the constraints of your creation. For example, we've got a character who’s a honey bee that is in the form of a jar with wings. But this creature doesn't, for example, relocate within light speed, it doesn't suddenly grow a shotgun and shoot you. It wouldn't fit the story setting. He needs to fly. He’s a jar filled with honey, so he needs to be heavy in the animation. The movement needs to be believable even though it's a jar of honey with wings. 

FB
There's a logic to the weight and so you feel it's not a speedy thing. It has its limitations. You bring up whimsical aspects a lot. Alice in Wonderland, to some people's minds, is really a whimsical story because there are a lot of absurd things that happen. But, at the same time, there are a lot of people who interpret Alice in Wonderland as very dark and nightmarish because you're out of control, you're shrinking and you're growing. It depends on your point of view. 

Do you see Alice in Wonderland as a fantasy? Do you see dark elements? Which elements did you blend in? What was inspirational for the game?

SJ
That's a very interesting question. We use some scarier elements to a degree because we are still targeting a relatively young audience (10+) so we do not want to use very significant fear themes. That said, even if I watch animation or Disney movies with my five-year-old, there are some fearful themes. They're oftentimes very useful in storytelling in order to show there is a threat or a challenge that the protagonist needs to overcome. This is useful in games as well, which rely pretty heavily on the notion of challenge. The challenge doesn't need to always be scary. But if the challenge isn’t scary from time to time, if it’s funny, it’d be rather irritating. If something is rather scary, you're feeling motivated to overcome it. 

My point is that it will be used from time to time but it is not something you will see often in our game. It’s rather very visually appealing, even during the night. The biomes in the game, during the day, look like a fantasy world, dreamlike. But at night, they look similar to the Avatar movies, which is also attractive. So people don't need to be afraid of the dark, right? We do not play on this theme anymore because we've played on this very often in our previous game. Now we're not using it.

FB
Can you share anything specific from Alice in Wonderland? Or is it more the idea of somebody coming in on a star and coming into a new world like Alice falling into the rabbit hole and encountering these quirky characters and the conflict she feels as she's navigating this world? For instance, is there a Jabberwock?

SJ
Not yet not in the current design but we are using bits and pieces. We are using references to either Alice or The Little Prince whenever we feel we'd have a good idea of how to use it. For example, in terms of enemy design, that's definitely a direction we will be going in. But not necessarily in the format that you might expect. The rabbit was a very important character, obviously, in Alice but it was a positive one. We are using the rabbit in the form of an enemy, a very important enemy. I won't spoil much, but it's in the form of an iron Golem. It manipulates time and it has watches incorporated in its body. So we’re playing on this notion of a rabbit with clocks but it’s a scary one and he's actually a robot with a clock. We want to be creative about it, we don't want to just copy-paste things. 

FB
I love that idea because it incorporates elements from Alice in Wonderland but, as we just talked about, it has a sci-fi feel because it's a robot. It serves both purposes, it gives you the whimsy of Alice that people will identify with and think is cool but it's got the sci-fi bent. You're talking about the development of To the Star, where are you in the process and where are you trying to get to?

SJ
You can break the development of a contemporary video game into a concept phase where you do all the thinking and writing, and then prototyping, then you usually go for something called a vertical slice which is a representative fragment of the game. So concept, prototype, a very rough element of the game, then the demo. Then you go into full production. All the enemies, all the story, all the environments, and at the very end, you're debugging. You're erasing any mistakes that you made along the way. Currently, we are after the prototype but before the production so we are trying to do this demo that will showcase the idea that we've got and hopefully get some interest from potential investors in order to fund the project.

FB
So, the demo is to show off the design and the gameplay. When you say investors, are you talking about going to publishers? Or are you looking for hard money, then move it along and take it to publishers afterward? Or are you going to be the developer and the publisher and have it on Steam or Twitch or something like that?

SJ
We are considering both options. We are a stock option company and we are considering issuing shares or getting a publisher and proceeding down that path. 

FB
As a CEO raising money and doing a stock option, that's its own beast.

SJ
I have been there already. Our previous game was financed through both options. We started with issuing shares and then signed with a publisher.

FB
What was your previous game?

SJ
So the previous game was called Gord. A gord is a Slavic fortification from ancient times. It’s a strategy game, a very dark game based on Slavic mythology that we adapted to our needs. We actually wrote the whole mythology around the game. This is posted on YouTube, the player has an option to actually read through our version of Slavic mythology before playing through our story. 

FB
Wow, that's amazing. Did you grow up writing? There’s so much creativity and writing needed when developing games, especially when you're building worlds. Was that something you did a lot when you were a kid and into your adulthood? 

SJ
No, unfortunately, not. I was always somebody who had a talent for organizing stuff. That's why I became a producer and that's how I started my career. But when I became an independent developer, owning a small studio, I needed to wear a lot of hats. I needed to learn a lot of things. I really enjoyed both writing and directing so that was something I was really keen on doing. We even received a nomination a few days ago for a Digital Dragon Award for the Best Polish Narrative for Gord. That's quite an accomplishment for us.

FB
Congratulations. Since you're playing in the Alice space, why do you think Alice continues to be a muse for so many creative people, whether it's musicians, movies, or games?  In your culture, Alice is big like it is in all cultures. Why do you think it translates?

SJ
It’s appealing to me because it really opens up your imagination. There aren't that many creations of literature that you actually know. Works that have so much imagination and, at the same time, are not totally crazy surrealistic things that don't make any sense. It's still believable and very appealing in that manner. But from a utilitarian standpoint, as I have to emphasize as a game creator, it is very practical to have such a setting because then you can allow yourself to do a lot of strange things and still have it fit in the setting you've chosen. Because not all the settings are like that. If you go with a realistic setting, you cannot teleport people or do anything magical. You are constrained within your setting. So the more open-ended setting you choose the more weird mechanics you can throw at the player and surprise them. So that's very valuable. 

FB
What about the value of Alice in Wonderland being recognizable, or the value of The Little Prince being recognizable so that the player is grounded at the beginning of the game? You have Wonderland as a brand, as an IP, that's helping position your game.

SJ
Absolutely. That's a good point on its own because when I'm saying I've got a game that’s inspired by this piece, then immediately people who know and like the inspiration can relate to the game. They already know how I'm positioning the product. So that's very valuable. Because if I would say I'm doing a fantasy game, we wouldn't be talking. 

FB
Exactly. That's true.

SJ
That’s very valuable. I've learned that when talking with investors but also publishers like you, you need to have a short sentence where you explain what your product is an interpretation of Alice in Wonderland by Tim Burton, especially the movie. You immediately know it’s these mechanics with this setting.

FB
They understand what it is. You're taking a brand and you're redefining it for your own storytelling. Hundreds and thousands of people have done it and it's really going to come down to the execution. If you execute right and you get that tone and you get that playability, then the investors can see there's a way of selling it. It works in all businesses. As you said, Alice in Wonderland is a universal story and a universal world. It’s been around for so long that we almost forget how often it interplays with our day-to-day life, so why not put it into gameplay? 

Why did you choose a survival adventure game for To the Star? 

SJ
Gord was a strategy adventure game, as I called it, so strategy adventure and now survival adventure. The main genre would be adventure. Doing adventure games is something that is very close to my heart. I think this notion of traveling, going on a journey, is very attractive and I had an idea of how to execute it. Why survival? Survival video games are not necessarily defined by the fact that somebody is struggling to survive.

It’s not the only element of the definition. It gets tricky when you’re talking about game genres. For example, if you ask somebody from the games industry what the definition of a survival game is, they would say the survival aspect is one thing, but there is also the base-building aspect. The progression of the character or the crafting itself as a core mechanic is very important. Crafting is a part of the definition of a survival game. Those mechanics are useful in your journey in order to craft stuff, have better gear, and in our game you also grow food because Alice has magical food so we wanted to build on that. Then we figured out we've got a survival adventure game. This genre is also very popular on our target platform. So that was also an argument. 

FB
As the CEO of a company you get to work with your team on the creative aspects and then you have the business aspect. 

You mentioned when you're pitching to investors, you have to have your elevator pitch. What games do you reference when saying to investors, “It's like this game versus this game?” In movies, it's “this movie meets this movie.”  Do you have an equivalent for your game that our audience might be able to relate to?

SJ
The main game we reference is called Grounded. We say it’s Grounded mixed with Tim Burton's interpretation of Alice in Wonderland because we are using a lot of swirly shapes and Burton-esque art style. We wanted to use it in a positive and optimistic version, not a dark one, not a scary one. This is also our angle because a lot of survival adventure games are scary, very grounded, and very down on Earth. We want to offer the game to the same audience but give them something more positive, something more whimsical, and something more fun, hopefully.

FB
This just popped into my mind. Do you have a boy or a girl?

SJ
I've got a boy, Gabriel.

FB
Since you've had Gabriel, how has your thinking towards games changed, if at all?

SJ
Absolutely. My thinking about indie development actually started when I was preparing to be a father. Then he was born when I was actually doing my first indie game. So my child and my company are being developed simultaneously. It definitely affects me as a creator. In my first game, Gord, we were playing with the fact that you were a steward supervising a village full of subjects. You needed to provide them with food, tuition, housing, etc. But there was also a sanity parameter. You need to take care of the psychological aspect of their health.  

As a psychologist by education, I was asking myself what would be the strongest stressor, the most emotionally heavy thing that would affect the mentality of your subject. So, immediately, the death of a child popped into my head. Being a father affected some of the decisions I made like putting children into Gord. There are also some aspects of To the Star but I cannot spoil it.

FB
I have two children, 16 and 18. I'm a little further along than you are but when I was writing my novels, the way they would see the world, the way I would tell them stories, and the way they would react to these stories really influenced my writing. That whole thing you talked about with imagination and opening up your imagination when you're a kid and having these really powerful imaginations. That became thematic in my books as a magic system. Because you start to lose that when you get older. The world wants you to fit in a box. There's no such thing as a box for kids. 

Can we chat a little bit about The Witcher? I’ve actually never played the game but I've watched the shows and it's a very deep mythology and very complex in the way they tell the stories using different timelines and then connecting them. But can you talk a little bit about your experience with the game? Then, have you watched the show? 

SJ
My first question is, have you watched the Polish show from the early 2000s?

FB
I have not. How are they different?

SJ
There are a lot of similarities, especially to the first Netflix season. However, the early 2000s adaptation had a much lower budget and production capabilities. The Witcher franchise is very political, it gets very complex. There aren't as many main characters as in Game of Thrones, you've mainly Ciri and Geralt. But I would say The Witcher is on par with Game of Thrones in terms of complexity. 

When I was playing the second installment of the game, after just thirty minutes you've got the dialogue, you've got so many names of regions and characters. If you haven't followed the books you can get easily confused about what's actually happening. The people are trying to explain the political dynamics of the world and how it came to be in the current setting. That's not often seen in video games.

FB
You see that in novels because you can read it slowly and you can go back. For The Witcher game, why do you think that ended up working? It was so complex and there’s so much to carry in your mind. Or was it that, if you couldn't carry it all, the playability was still really engaging? Because that's a lot to ask of the audience or the player.

SJ
Absolutely. The games are often framed in a way that allows the player to choose what they’re interested in and what they want to ignore. There is a deeper story layer that you can get into and it will be rewarding to you but if you're not interested you can just follow the marker on your map. You keep the dialogue, skip the cutscenes, and just follow the marker, kill the guy, and get the reward. You can fine-tune the game to your needs. That helps. 

Then The Witcher games were framed in a way that they had their own Unique Selling Point (USP). The main USP of The Witcher franchise was the choices and the consequences. We tried when working on the third installment, The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, to make a game where you felt the choice and the burden of the choice you've made along your journey. The game definitely succeeded in that, although it was very difficult to pull off because it's a complex game. It has a lot of quests and a lot of missions. It’s a very long game. Then the quest designers, who were the best in the world, actually needed to control that. So they needed to say, “All right, so if you just ignored that guy a few hours before and then you get into a romantic relationship with this person a few hours later, then it somehow intertwines into this aspect of the game. It gives you a bonus option you can pursue. That was very, very complex. I was the producer of the cinematics and the dialogues and we had around 1,500 interactions. In each interaction, there was a lot of branching off in how you could go about your dialogue. That was very laborious to pull off and still give value to a lot of those options that you chose.

FB
How many years did it take to develop that game? I mean, I'm assuming it's built off of games one and two, The Witcher and The Witcher Two: Assassins of the Kings, but given the complexity you're talking about, it’s a long haul.

SJ
I wasn't at the very beginning of the concept phase of the game, but I think it was five years. The next title I worked on, Cyberpunk 2077, took even longer and it went even further in terms of the consequences and how you behave within the world. 

FB
Have any other games come along since The Witcher games that have anywhere close to that level of complexity? 

SJ
Yes, especially Baldur’s Gate 3, which launched last year. That’s a very complex game but they do it in a different way and it’s also fantastic. But The Witcher has its own flavor. 

FB
I assume you're not playing The Witcher with your son yet?

SJ
No, no.

FB
Does he play any games or do you allow him to play games?

SJ
I allow him to play games. He has his own phone, on which he cannot call, but he has some games there. Those are the only games I allow. They’re usually logic games, chess, and learning words. 

FB
Very, very good parenting. How about other kinds of games, like tabletop games? Are you a gaming family across genres? 

SJ
Absolutely. We try to play as much as we can. However, video games have the advantage of oftentimes being flashy and very rewarding, and also being very helpful in regards to showing you moves that are allowed and preventing you from doing something that is not allowed in the game. I'm thinking about chess, for example. On the physical chessboard, you can do some stuff that is not allowed by the game but is still fun to do. But in the video game version, you can’t. So I see many advantages of the video game, but tabletop is something that we utilize as well.

FB
I understand you lecture quite a bit about game development. How are you in front of an audience of I'm assuming students?

SJ
Right now, I feel rather good, especially if prepared. I’ve been lecturing for a few years now but at first, it was a struggle for me since I'm rather an introvert. Also doing it in English because it's not my native tongue. But right now, especially if I'm prepared and not improvising, it’s going pretty well.

FB
What you just said about improvising versus being prepared is a critical component of speaking in front of a large audience. I did a lot of school visits. If you're talking to fifth or sixth graders, they're so happy to be out of class you can just start telling them a story. It's great when you get around eighth graders where they've hit puberty and they're all trying to be cool. They're all chatting and there's a couple hundred of them. You better be on your game to get them engaged and if they're not engaged, you better be brave enough to call them out. Whenever I did school events, there were always the two kids who weren't paying attention that I focused on, not the hundred who were engaged. I would try and make a joke like, “Do you guys want to go make out somewhere?” Then the audience would laugh and they would be embarrassed and they would shut up.

SJ
I wasn't brave enough to talk in front of the younger audiences.

FB
It’s a different skill set but I enjoyed it almost more than the adult audiences because with the adult audiences, they're really engaged in the process. But when it's a young audience, especially fifth and sixth graders, they would just sit on the ground, it looked so uncomfortable, and they would just look up. You’d just have to find some way to turn their attention away from the friend next to them and then they would be like, “Whoa,” and so you tell a little story. It really showed the power of storytelling. 

The other part of it is you're teaching, so once you have them, then you can communicate the lesson, whether it’s the struggles of being a writer or being a game developer, and how that relates to life and overcoming challenges. Lots of times, the teachers wanted me to say how many times I had to rewrite my book because their students would write their work once and say, “I’m done.” And the teachers would say, “No, you have to rewrite it.” So I would show photographs of all of the notes from my editor, the things they liked, and the things they didn't like, which were in red. On the first page, there'd be a couple of items in red, and on the next page, it would be full of notes. The kids would go, “Oh, whoa,” and I'd say how I had to rewrite it ten times. The English teachers would come up to me afterward and say, “Thank you so much.” 

SJ
The rewrite process you’re talking about is also very often used in video games. It's always very painful. One of the ways CD Projekt RED is doing what they're doing is through iterations. When they were asked in an interview how they achieved such high quality in the writing and quests, they said, “Through iterations.” Some people were working on their quests for a year or two but their work actually ended up not landing in the game. Somebody else took over, rewrote it, and then they released it. You were working on the game for some time and you’d be amazed that your work hadn’t actually made it to the final version. That's sad but this is the cost of quality. I've done many versions of a trailer for To the Star. I think we're currently on the twenty-second iteration and I'm getting a feeling from my editor that he's already tired with my notes. I think we need to be wrapping up. 

FB
Luckily, you pay him. So he has to continue until you're satisfied. Just have them read Steve Jobs’ biography and they'll probably be very happy he has you as a CEO. In the movie business, that development process can be very similar. You're developing and developing and sometimes you do over-develop and you don't even remember what the inspiring idea was in the beginning. Then it turns out to be terrible and you have to go back and bring in another team and they go back to the beginning. But, in redoing things, if there's somebody in charge, if there's the general and they're making the decision it’s okay. It's when there's a committee, that's the problem. I don't mind rewriting it over and over if my editors have good notes but at the end of the day, it's my decision on what the sentence is, what the paragraph is, what the chapter is, and what the book is. I imagine you're the one who says, “Okay, this is good enough or this is perfect. Let’s put it out there.”

SJ
That’s how we structure our work at my company. I am a big fan of participatory management styles that invite anybody to participate in the process regardless of your position in the company. Whether you just joined and began or you have been a director at some posh company, that doesn't matter. If you have good ideas, then just bring them up. Hopefully, I will see that and use that in the development process. But also, I do agree with you that there needs to be a person who actually keeps it all together, a vision holder.

FB
I really appreciate chatting with you today. I wish you luck in finishing To the Star, your Alice in Wonderland, and The Little Prince video game.

SJ
Awesome, thanks for having me today.

FB
It was really fun. Thank you, take care.

SJ
Bye bye.

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