Why A Young Hatter Madigan Animated Series Could Be The Next "Avatar: The Last Airbender"
I don’t know what has happened but in the past five to ten years the popularity of anime has exploded. While you could argue that anime was always massive, it was more of a subculture consisting of those kids who Naruto-ran in P.E. and those who watched anime but didn’t talk about it because they didn’t want to be grouped in with the Naruto-runners. What was once nerd culture is now popular culture. And I’m here for it.
I’ll let you in on a little secret, too; I was always here for it. No, I was not a Naruto runner, but when Cartoon Network switched to Toonami came on, I was locked in. (Specifically, I liked Bleach.) I knew I was about to watch something different from what I had ever seen before. Everything was new and exciting - the art style, world-building, action, and the themes that were being tackled. Before I had seen anime it never occurred to me that cartoon characters could bleed if the artist wanted them to. It was mind-blowing, it still is. When I’m in a creative rut I’ll find an anime series I’ve never seen before because the creativity is so different. It’s like a factory reset for me.
In America, the most popular anime genre is shōnen. Shōnen is manga/anime with a target audience of 12 to 18-year-old boys (girls obviously love it as well because it wouldn’t be as popular without them). Some of the most popular anime shows that have ever existed fall into this genre, Naruto, Dragonball Z, Bleach, Attack on Titan, Full Metal Alchemist, One Piece, and Hunter X Hunter. I want to keep going because I’m afraid I will miss your favorite show and you will leave an angry comment I won’t read but I’ve already mentioned enough shows.
A common trope in anime is taking a known thing, be it a historical event, fictional universe, and/or real or fictional characters, and tailoring them to the author's vision. Take the character Franken Stein from Soul Eater for example. In the show, he is an amalgamation of both Victor Frankenstein and his monster and uses electricity-centric attacks. Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein is obviously the inspiration yet, in the show, Franken Stein is wholly unique. Taking characters, IPs, or historical events and using them as a jumping-off point to create your own story isn’t uniquely Japanese. A perfect example of that is in Frank Beddor’s The Looking Glass Wars series and the Hatter M graphic novels. Frank took Lewis Carroll’s world and characters and created a unique realm. This is why I think The Looking Glass Wars would be perfect for a “Western anime” adaptation. Specifically, an animated series following his Mad Hatter character, the Master Milliner and Royal Bodyguard Hatter Madigan.
Frank Beddor’s Hatter Madigan is not your tea-sipping, seat-swapping Hatter of old. He is a badass blade-slinging, hat-throwing, supersoldier. His story is perfect for an animated adaptation. In Frank Beddor’s The Looking Glass Wars series, Hatter Madigan is introduced as the royal bodyguard for Princess Alyss and her family. The Hatter M graphic novel spinoff series follows Hatter on his wild and action-packed adventures around the world in search of the missing Princess Alyss. This alone is enough for a show but the world of Wonderland that Frank created is so much larger than this. We haven’t even gotten into the Suit families and their political battles, card soldiers, the mysterious and powerful skills of Dark and Light Imagination, creative tinkerers, looking-glass transportation, and the Crystal Continuum. The world that Frank Beddor built is massive, unique, and detailed. To have this world brought to life through animation would blow everyone away.
The show would follow the young Hatter who was orphaned at four after his parents’ disappearance during a Millinery mission, Hatter and his older brother Dalton lived at the Millinery academy for years before Hatter was allowed to attend the school himself. Burdened by the shadows cast by his talented older brother and his parent's reputation, Hatter strives to be the best. Did someone say training arc? The Millinery is the secretive military force of Wonderland, where the best Milliners are tasked with safeguarding the Queen and her family. Hatter is determined to succeed at the academy and make a name for himself in his own right.
What specifically would make this show a “Western anime?” Or for that matter, what even is a “Western anime?” The term itself doesn’t mean that much on its own because a “Western anime” is just a cartoon. But, there is one specific show that I and many others agree is specifically a “Western anime” and not just a cartoon. That show is Avatar: The Last Airbender.
Along with its Japanese-inspired art style, Avatar also did something that not many other Western cartoons aimed at young adults. The show’s themes and stakes were serious. Characters got injured, were in peril, and had to make truly difficult choices. The show had depth, which is much more common in anime compared to Western cartoons. So, while there is no such thing as a “Western anime,” an animated series about Hatter Madigan could sit beside Avatar: The Last Airbender and become a show that people call a “Western anime.”
There are things about the Hatter Madigan series as well as The Looking Glass Wars that are reminiscent of anime already. Starting on the surface, let’s look at the weapons. Specific weapons and tools are a common trope in anime. Gon from Hunter x Hunter has his fishing rod, Mitsuri Kanroji’s whip sword in Demon Slayer, and the Death Note in Death Note. The reason for these cool, unique, and unorthodox weapons in anime is that they allow the viewer to gain a sense of who a character is just by glancing at them. Milliners are known for their signature hats. While stylish, they are sentient, deadly, thrown weapons. Along with their hats, Milliners also utilize many other weapons, from belt buckles with a series of J-shaped sabers to backpacks that seem to provide an unending supply of different blades. A vast majority of these weapons are imbued with magical thread made of caterpillar silk to make them even more powerful.
There is something “weird” about anime. Now, when I say “weird” (and I’m going to say it a few times) I don’t mean that in a bad way. I would argue the “weirdness” is a drawing point for many of the viewers. The “weirdness” is originality. Even when a show is an adaptation, there is always some form of “weirdness” that takes something we all know and turns it on its head. When one takes a step back, it is easy to see that weirdness isn’t unique to anime. Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland is weird and Frank’s adaptations are weird as well. Again, weirdness is not a bad thing, it just means that it’s something that has not been seen before or is an original take on something familiar. The Hatter animated series would have the perfect amount of weirdness, attracting audiences and keeping them locked in. Weapons imbued with caterpillar thread are weird and awesome. If you want to zoom out more, turning Lewis Carroll’s Wonderland into this amazing sci-fi/fantasy world is weird…and awesome.
Finally, there are the stakes. As I mentioned before, Avatar: The Last Airbender is accepted as a “Western anime” not because of its art style but for its themes. The main character, Aang, is the last Airbender due to the Fire Nation’s genocide of the airbenders. In The Looking Glass Wars trilogy and the Hatter M graphic novel series people get hurt, people die, and characters have to make difficult moral choices. This, of course, would translate to the show. Hatter Madigan is an orphan who grew up in the Wonderland version of Westpoint before attending said school. While I’m sure he would have some happy memories of his childhood, that does not make it a happy childhood. The show, of course, will have its fair share of fun and lighthearted moments, but these will be balanced with the drama. It feels as though in animated shows, it is often forgotten that kids can handle a lot more than just the happy or silly moments.
A Hatter animated show needs to be made. There has been a massive vacuum left by The Last Airbender that has yet to be filled. Given the rise of anime, it’s obvious that people want more and they are going elsewhere to get it. Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland is one of the most recognizable and successful IPs in history. People can’t get enough of Alice. So let’s give them what they want.
Meet the Author
Jared Hoffman graduated from the American Film Institute with a degree in screenwriting. A Los Angeles native, his brand of comedy is satire stemming from the many different personalities and egos he has encountered throughout his life. As a lover of all things comedy, Jared is always working out new material and trying to make those around him laugh. His therapist claims this is a coping mechanism, but what does she know?
Hope Renewed: Princess Alyss Embraces Her Destiny - Part 4
Back in 2007, we collaborated with noted Alyssian historian Agnes MacKenzie to publish Princess Alyss of Wonderland, a stunning collection of letters, journal writings, and art from Her Royal Imaginer, Princess Alyss Heart. These breathtaking documents chronicled the incredible childhood of Wonderland’s exiled heir apparent and future hero of The Looking Glass Wars.
Part One spanned Alyss’ flight from Wonderland and how she survived her first days on the rough streets of London. In Part Two, Alyss recounts the horrors of the notorious Charing Cross Orphanage and her disappointment at being adopted by the unimaginative Liddells. Part Three follows Alyss' pain and indignation when she is betrayed by her good friend, Lewis Carroll.
When we last saw Alyss, she was slipping into despair over the gross falsehoods contained in “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland.” She thought Lewis Carroll believed her when she told him about Wonderland, Redd, and Hatter. But he had just twisted her words and now she had to admit that “Alice” had won.
Yet Alyss wouldn’t be down for long. A surprising message from home soon arrived and helped remind Alyss of who she was meant to be…
(*As always, I am indebted to the tireless and exhaustive research of the eminent Wonderland historian Agnes MacKenzie. Her dedication has helped keep the true story of Queen Alyss alive!)
Diary Entry - October 19, 1865 Since the BETRAYAL, I have been in the darkest of moods, unable to smile or even enjoy a delicious toffee twist. Wanting to be alone and as far away as possible from any mention of “Alice,” I decided to walk to a meadow where I often go to think about Wonderland when a ray of brilliant, almost crystal, sunshine cut across the meadow and all of the flowers lifted their faces skyward and began to sing. It was the most wondrous sound I had ever heard. Unbelievable, perhaps, to anyone from this world but for me. I was immediately aware of the presence of Wonderland.
Diary Entry - October 19, 1865 (continued) I now realize that flowers are the link to Wonderland and that they are the purest receivers of Imagination. Everything and everyone else I have encountered has been rather lacking in spirit, form, and IMAGINATION compared to what exists in Wonderland. In this world, animals are treated as if they have no mind of their own and respond by being inarticulate while in Wonderland so-called animals hold public office and play instruments. And the buildings here are so SQUARE and SOLID. Who could bear to live in a box all of their life? Boxes are for transporting items, not a place to live, laugh and dream! My mind continued to race as I recalled the creatures and streets and shops of Wonderland. I became so dizzy with color and space and Imagination that I immediately began painting and by teatime had covered every inch of my bedroom walls with art.
Diary Entry - October 27, 1865 I was in my room today when suddenly and very clearly I heard Bibwit Harte’s voice call out to me, “Princess! You must check your pockets!” What could it possibly mean? Thinking hard all day I went to each of my pinafores and coats and dutifully checked every pocket. Nothing but one stale peppermint twist which I immediately ate. Hmmm? It was very puzzling. And then I knew! My birthday gown from Wonderland! I went to where it was stored in the closet trunk and pulled it out. I checked every pocket. NOTHING!!!
But wait…
Letter from Princess Alyss to Royal Tutor Bibwit Harte Most Honorable and Learned Bibwit Harte,
Of course, it would be you, the knower of all of Wonderland's secrets past, present, and future, who would find a way to contact me. Unfortunately, I possess no such knowledge so I am forced to use the British Post. Dear, dear Bibwit Harte you have no idea how thrilled I was to hear your voice and receive your message. But it wasn’t until I remembered the secret pocket sewn inside the right wristband of my Birthday gown for keeping treasures that must never be lost that I made my discovery. I unbuttoned the tiny pocket and immediately felt the cool, clear roundness of the Imagination Sphere! I remembered how you would leave the sphere on my pillow whenever you wished to summon me for Imagination Training. Now that I have found the sphere I will begin training immediately. Expect updates.
Your most promising student,
HRI Alyss
Diary Entry - November 22, 1865 After training all day with the Imagination Sphere, I fell asleep and immediately began to dream of traveling with Bibwit over Wonderland in an enormous illuminated bubble. As we floated to all seven corners of the land, Bibwit told me the Secret of Finding Your Imagination. I have tried to record them exactly as he told me because I am certain this information is vital for everyone.
The Secrets of Finding Your Imagination
What you see behind you is as important as what you see in front.
Do cartwheels twice a day while humming your favorite song.
Laugh very loud if you cannot remember something.
Walk backward if you are in a hurry.
Never hurry to something unpleasant.
Eat something delicious before bed.
Look out the window immediately upon waking and say hello to the twin suns.
Bid the Thurmite moon goodnight before sleeping.
Remember to dream.
Dream to remember.
Tickle your imagination when stuck.
Agnes MacKenzie Dear reader, you see before you one of the most valuable documents ever given to our world. It is with the utmost sincerity that I encourage each and every one of you to practice the secrets revealed here and be prepared to experience an imagination that has no bounds.
Letter from Princess Alyss to Royal Tutor Bibwit Harte Most Honorable and Learned Bibwit Harte,
I have been faithfully training with the Imagination Sphere three times a day and am very happy to inform you that my Imagination is becoming very powerful. The skies are bluer and the sun brighter and people smile much more now. When I see with my Imagination I see things that are hidden and I am able to assist others with their searches. For instance, Lorina lost her favorite doll and by simply imagining where she could possibly have left it I was immediately able to find it. And most importantly, I breathe in the air and imagine that it fills me so much that I can float above the trees and see all the best puddles. I will continue training each day and hopefully will find the puddle that will return me to Wonderland in time for my next birthday. I have also learned many new ways of imagining that are useful here in this world. Painting and drawing are very much like imagining in Wonderland, only here I use a brush with colored paints or a piece of lead to make what I need to see or feel or remember. My imaginings must stay on the page here in this world but they feel no less real to me than what I once imagined in Wonderland.
Your forever grateful pupil,
HRI Alyss
Diary Entry - January 1, 1866 When mother ordered Royal Bodyguard Hatter Madigan to take me away from Wonderland I begged her to let me stay. Her last words to me were “No matter what happens, I will always be near you, sweetheart. On the other side of the looking glass. And never forget who you are, do you understand?” Since arriving in this world I have spent much of my life staring into looking glasses and hoping to see my mother but it wasn't until my powers of Imagination began to increase that I finally understood what she had meant. I must first IMAGINE that I see her. Trembling and nervous, I approached the looking glass and imagined my mother smiling back at me, within moments a message appeared!
Aces, Spades, Diamonds and Hearts
Lost their princess off the charts
Your Majesty's subjects await your return
So the light of imagination can continue to burn.
Someday, sweet daughter, you'll find your way home,
Hurtling out of this mundane realm,
Even though I cannot tell you how far,
A way can be found if you remember who you are,
Regal destiny is yours to win
Take Heart and always remember to….Imagine.
Agnes MacKenzie Fascinating! What Alyss describes is an advanced form of 'mirror scrying' or receiving messages from other realms by images that form in your mirror. Known to every culture, 'magic mirrors' were used throughout history to enable one to see the present, the past, and the future. But the mind boggles at the concept of having a personal message written in such a lyrical manner suddenly appear in a looking glass. Some may question the authenticity of the message, but if not Queen Genevieve, who else would have sent this message of hope to a long-lost daughter? I wonder what messages await me in my own looking glass should my Imagination ever grow strong enough to see them.
Diary Entry - Undated Today upon waking I realized that I no longer cared about Lewis Carroll's book or what others believe to be true and that all that matters is what I believe. As soon as this thought flashed through my mind I felt incredibly confident and decided to go puddle hunting. Towards late afternoon, I saw IT, shimmering in the center of Queen's Lane, a puddle where no puddle should be! I am certain that, this is the puddle that will take me home to Wonderland. I will always remember my mother’s words: “You will be the strongest Queen yet. Your Imagination will be the crowning achievement of the Land.”
Go back and read Parts One, Two, and Three of Alyss' Letters to discover how the Princess of Wonderland adjusted to her rude awakening on Earth.
Five Maddest Mad Hatter Moments
Of all the articles I have written for Frank, I have always had the most fun writing about the Mad Hatter and his many different versions. From the original Hatter to the Disney cartoon to Frank’s badass Hatter Madigan, the adaptations of Hatter always seem to be a crowd favorite. So much in fact that October 6 is actually National Mad Hatter Day. Mad Hatter Day is a bit of a free-for-all for those who like to be silly. It’s quite easy to celebrate, you can wear a silly hat, watch a silly movie, throw a tea party, eat some mercury, or just be authentically silly. When I was let out of Franks's basement to write this blog, I was told it should be “…pretty light and leave a lot of room for comedy.” Which I have interpreted as “Be as weird as you want Jared.” To which I say, “Your funeral.” So, I have gathered a collection of my top five Maddest Mad Hatter Moments for you to enjoy.
5. Tea down the neck, through the shirt, and out the sleeve - Disney’s Alice in Wonderland.
Starting off this list is arguably the most recognizable version of the Mad Hatter. Voiced by Ed Wynn, the 1951 Disney Mad Hatter was probably most people's first introduction to the wild character. While he has many funny and whimsical moments in the movie, I chose this slick maneuver as the first “maddest” moment. You really would have to be suffering from mercury poisoning to pour tea down the collar of your shirt and out your sleeve and not be screaming from the beverage singeing your skin. I know it’s a cartoon, but it’s still mad.
4. Martin Short’s Mad Hatter Haunting My Dreams - Alice in Wonderland TV Movie
I had to see it and now so do you! Martin Short is awesome, the comedian is beloved by many. But he has a dark secret. You see when he isn’t solving crimes with Selena Gomez and Steve Martin, Martin Short is busy haunting my dreams. Specifically, his performance as the Mad Hatter in the 1980s nightmare fuel Alice in Wonderland TV movie. First is his laugh, a high pitch truly crazy laugh that sends a chill down my spine. On top of that is the fact that his head is MASSIVE. I know this was an attempt to make him look more like the cartoon but instead, it made him look like a terrifying Steve Madden shoes ad. I have included the full tea party scene so you can have nightmares as well.
3. The Mad Hatter’s Pin Cushion - Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland
Some would argue that Tim Burton’s adaptation of the Mad Hatter made the manic milliner even more famous than before. A part of this, of course, can be attributed to the fantastic performance of Johnny Depp, who brought his signature flare into the role. This specific performance is arguably the most cosplayed version of the Mad Hatter due to the costume, hair, and makeup being exceptionally striking. Also probably because Depp is a sex symbol and if you're going to cosplay, might as well be cosplaying that. Don’t believe me? Well, the video I found was titled “Tarrant Hightopp being sexy af for 5 1/2 minutes straight” Don’t get me wrong, Johnny Depp is a good-looking guy but…I mean…to each their own I guess. I need a shower.
Depp’s Hatter has many great moments but the maddest moment of all is when he is fighting the Knave of Hearts. During the sword fight, the Mad Hatter uses a pin from his pincushion to poke the eye of the Knave gaining the upper hand in the fight. This is truly mad because I never expected to see something so violent from the Hatter. But hey, all is fair in love and war.
2. Human Chess - Batman: The Animated Series, “As Mad as a Hatter”
The Mad Hatter isn’t just limited to the collection of Alice movies. He was also a less popular Batman villain who made his first appearance in the 1950s comics. The version of the Mad Hatter portrayed in the comics and cartoons has nothing to do with Alice and I’ll prove it to you. First, his hats are mind-control devices. Second, he’s in love with a woman named Alice. Finally, in one of the comics, he had a monkey called Carroll Lewis. Completely different. In Batman: The Animated Series, there is a scene where the Mad Hatter has placed mind control devices on people and Batman has to figure out how to fight through them while on a giant chess board. The queen on the chessboard even says, “Off with his head.”
1. Mad Hatter Bot - Futurama, Insane in the Mainframe
This is only a quick moment but as a massive Futurama fan, I had to mention it. In this episode, an error happens in Fry’s sentencing for a crime and he is sentenced to the Hal Institute for Criminally Insane Robots. While in a group session, the Mad Hatter Bot, whose hat tag reads 5/3 instead of 10/6 (probably because a robot would do the math on the fraction) periodically makes the other robots change places, causing the therapy robot to end up as a patient, thus receiving “treatment” in the form of a hammer. Is this one of his maddest moments? Well, he is in an insane asylum.
I have more moments and decided in the spirit of Mad Hatter Day, traditional listicle numbering be damned.
This time, the Hatter is portrayed by Steve Buscemi, who, side note, would make an amazing Mad Hatter outside of a skit. In the sketch, Alice, the March Hare, the Dormouse, and the Mad Hatter have a mad-off to show Alice who is the most “mad.” It starts off quite whimsical but when it gets to the Mad Hatter, he seems to actually be insane, claiming to wash his hands over one hundred times a day to wash off the smell of his mother, making toy cars out of his poo, and eventually flipping the table and being placed in a straight jacket. He was both the winner and the loser of the contest.
-1. Special Guest Bonus Moment
*AIRHORNS* That’s right, before wrapping up this list, I wanted to bring in the author of The Looking Glass Wars. You know his name because it’s humbly the name of this website. He’s the man who kindly allows me to see the light of day once a month. My boss, Frank Beddor.
So, Frank, I have purposely left out any moments of your version of the Mad Hatter, Hatter Madigan because I wanted to hear what was your favorite mad moment that you came up with. I didn’t leave it out to make you mad. I definitely don’t want that. The Disappointment Box is so small and dark. But yes, what is your favorite Hatter Madigan moment?
SPACE FOR FRANK’S ANSWER
*Response to Franks's answer has been pre-written and will not be edited as the author of the blog kept calling it “censorship”:
Hahaha, I couldn’t agree more. Or if the answer requires it, Hahaha, I disagree completely.
Well, there you have it, my list of the Mad Hatter's Maddest Moments. Before I reach the finish and am forced back into Franks's basement until another blog is needed, I wanted to mention one more quick, “mad” Mad Hatter moment I thought needed to be mentioned.
-2. Frank Beddor vs. Tim Burton: The Trial of the Century
I guess it's not so much a moment but a snippet from a trailer. In the trailer for Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland, we see the Mad Hatter throwing his hat. This is early similar to Frank Beddor’s very own Hatter Madigan, who famously uses his hat as a weapon. While it is legally distinct, the Hatter throwing his hat was first conceptualized by Frank Beddor. What, or should I say, who, is so mad about this? Well, Frank Beddor of course. IP theft is no joke and as Frank Beddor’s official lawyer-
(The rest of this sentence has been deleted. It must be stated that Jared Hoffman is not, has not, and never will be, the legal council of Frank Beddor or those associated with Frank Beddor. Frank Beddor loves Tim Burton’s adaptation of “Alice in Wonderland” and does not believe there has been any theft of IP. Additionally, there is no Disappointment Box and Jared Hoffman can leave the basement any time he likes, he just chooses to stay there.)
Jared Hoffman graduated from the American Film Institute with a degree in screenwriting. A Los Angeles native, his brand of comedy is satire stemming from the many different personalities and egos he has encountered throughout his life. As a lover of all things comedy, Jared is always working out new material and trying to make those around him laugh. His therapist claims this is a coping mechanism, but what does she know?
Surprising Similarities Between Batman and Hatter Madigan
In the vast realm of fictional characters, two iconic figures stand out for their enigmatic personas and unparalleled skills – Hatter Madigan from The Looking Glass Wars universe and Batman from DC Comics. Both characters share a commitment to justice, distinct styles, and formidable arsenals. In this article, we dive down the rabbit hole into the intricacies of Hatter Madigan's capabilities, weapons, and magical elements, and then we’ll draw comparisons between the intrepid Milliner and the legendary Dark Knight.
Hatter Madigan's Mystical Arsenal: Hatter Madigan, an intimidating figure with a tall and athletic build, dons a captivating ensemble complete with a sentient top hat, versatile trench coat, unique vest, high-tech armor, military-inspired boots, lethal wrist blades, and the complex backpack, known as "The Bug." Each element of his arsenal is imbued with caterpillar thread, Wonderland magic, and advanced technology, creating a tapestry of unique capabilities.
Top Hat: Hatter's iconic top hat serves as more than a mere accessory; it is a semi-sentient sidekick made from Wonderland's mysterious caterpillar silk. The hat boasts a mesmerizing red bejeweled eye on its "stovepipe," signifying its sentient nature. It scans terrain, assesses danger, and can even track enemies, analyzing heat signatures, vulnerabilities, and voice recognition to provide Hatter with an overwhelming strategic advantage. With a flick of Hatter’s wrist, the hat flattens into a series of spinning S-shaped blades and is thrown to slice through attacking enemies.
One of the most unique aspects is the hat's kinship to its owner. It communicates telepathically with Hatter, establishing a deep bond that goes beyond mere attire. The hat also offers a metal shield, precision aiming, and catching capabilities, showcasing its multifaceted utility in combat scenarios.
But it doesn't end there. The hat can alter its size, strength, and color, seamlessly adapting to various situations. It is attuned to nature and the laws of the universe, which allows it to maneuver independently when separated from its owner. Further, its reality alteration capabilities, including the projection of illusions to confuse enemies, demonstrate the depth of Wonderland magic woven into its fabric.
Trench Coat: Hatter's trench coat, seemingly crafted from a Kevlar-like material, resembles Deckard’s jacket from Blade Runner and is both flexible and durable. It incorporates caterpillar silk, adding magical properties and it’s equipped with slits so blades from Hatter’s backpack can subtly emerge.Vest and Armor:
Vest and Armor: Hatter's vest, worn over his armor, features double-breasted Victorian detailing and piping with angled heart emblems. The shiny metal armor inspired by Thor's armor adds to Hatter's formidable appearance.
Boots and Wrist Blades Hatter's boots seamlessly blend military and equestrian design, showcasing Victorian and magical stitching details. The wrist blades, a departure from typical assassin tools, serve as a warrior's weapon for parrying and slashing. They can even be used as projectiles over a considerable distance, adding a ranged element to Hatter's offensive capabilities.
"The Bug": The Bug is by far the most complicated part of Hatter's arsenal. Its extensions, linked together by gears, form arms with various attachments, each reaching a good 4 feet in length. Bringing to mind the machinery of Spider-Man foe Doctor Octopus, the Bug’s arms can retract, bend forward, equip different ends, and unfold with eight points of movement, allowing for versatile combat maneuvers and providing a unique advantage in battle.
It communicates with Hatter and operates symbiotically through imagination, adding an element of wonder to its functionality. The Bug's arms are complemented by the Arsenal Cube, strapped to Hatter's back by Jabberwocky hide 'bladeoliers.' This cube is a marvel of Wonderland physics, expanding to reveal an infinite interior filled with blades and weapons, following the principles of sacred geometry.
Hatter Madigan and Batman: Now that we've unraveled the complex components of Hatter Madigan's arsenal, let's turn our attention to the Dark Knight of Gotham City. Batman is renowned for his unparalleled detective skills, martial arts prowess, and an arsenal of gadgets.
Detective Skills and Intellect Both Hatter and Batman share a keen intellect and exceptional detective skills. Batman, known as the "World's Greatest Detective," relies on his deductive reasoning to solve crimes and unravel mysteries in Gotham City. Hatter's telepathic connection with his sentient top hat enhances his situational awareness, allowing him to gather information and make informed decisions.
Combat Skills: In terms of combat, both characters excel in hand-to-hand combat and strategic planning. Batman's mastery of various martial arts styles is legendary, allowing him to take on multiple opponents effortlessly. Hatter, with his unique arsenal, exhibits a more theatrical and mystical combat style. The retractable spinning blades, precision aiming, and catching capabilities of the hat, combined with the versatile arms of The Bug, provide Hatter with a dynamic and visually striking approach to combat.
Gadgets and Technology: While Batman relies heavily on cutting-edge technology and an array of gadgets, Hatter's arsenal is fueled by Wonderland magic. The hat’s scanning capabilities and reality alteration and the Arsenal Cube's transcendent properties showcase a magical aspect absent in Batman's more grounded and technology-driven toolkit.
Stealth and Camouflage: Both characters are adept at stealth, but Hatter's top hat takes it a step further with its natural camouflage capabilities. The hat seamlessly blends into its surroundings, allowing Hatter to navigate discreetly, a feature not present in Batman's typical attire.
Mobility and Transportation: Batman's iconic Batmobile and Batcycle are extensions of his mastery of technology and symbols of his ubiquitous presence in Gotham. Hatter, on the other hand, relies on the unique abilities of his sentient hat and The Bug's arms. The hat can expand into a parachute to help slow one of Hatter’s many falls, while The Bug's arms can bend and extend, providing Hatter with a distinct advantage in navigating diverse terrains.
Motivation and Symbolism: Both characters share a commitment to justice, driven by personal tragedies. Batman's origin story is rooted in the murder of his parents, inspiring him to become a symbol of hope and justice in Gotham. Hatter's journey in Wonderland is equally poignant, as he strives to protect Princess Alyss Heart and reclaim Wonderland from the clutches of the Red Queen after she overthrew and murdered Queen Genevieve, whom Hatter was sworn to protect.
Style and Aesthetics: In terms of style, Batman is often characterized by his brooding demeanor, dark and stealthy costume, and gritty aesthetic. Hatter, on the other hand, embraces a more whimsical and fantastical style, with an almost theatrical flair.
To read any of the Hatter M graphic novels go to our store or Amazon.
ALL THINGS ALICE: INTERVIEW WITH GARY MURAKAMI
As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.
The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”
For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Gary Murakami join me! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.
Frank Beddor Welcome to the show Gary Murakami. I'm super happy to have you on and we're here to talk about the love of your life, Liz Cavalier. You guys were together for 30 years. I met Liz shortly thereafter.
I want to have this shared experience with you because, unfortunately, Liz passed away in 2016. She was not only the love of your life, but she was the most inspirational and important creative collaborator and friend that I had here in Los Angeles. She was instrumental in all of these creative endeavors, many of which we would sort out in coffee shops, taking notes, and you would often accompany her and do your own thing while we were talking about story.
I wanted to start today's chat based on our lunch a couple of weeks ago. You mentioned that you had a lot to do with Helmet Head Girl Hero. I met Liz through a producer friend and the first thing I read of hers was this script: Helmet Head Girl Hero. It was an amazing script and I just loved the tone and the personality. You said that was her big break. Can you, as a way of introduction, lead us to your meeting Liz and then subsequently your collaboration on that script?
Gary Murakami I met Liz in Santa Monica at a dance and exercise studio. I was taking dance classes. I remember wearing red tights that I had drawn stuff all over. Liz was stretching and exercising and I thought, “She's really sexy.” But she was married at the time. So we eventually became friends. We hung out pretty much every day, going to cafes and taking trips to places like the Channel Islands. Eventually, her husband got arrested in Pakistan for smuggling heroin. So that ended the relationship. Liz had a really dramatic life. I think she passed more in her life than anyone I've ever known.
FB I knew this was going to be a good podcast.
GM He was in Pakistan. Eventually, he bribed the police so he got out but she didn't want to be involved with that. Turns out he was bipolar as well, too. So that was enough of that. But we got together in 90 or 91 or so. She was looking for a story to do. She had gotten some stuff done, but never got it made.
She told me stories about her life. She was always a precocious child. Really smart. So much so that her parents had difficulty dealing with her because she was also the class clown. Her grandparents told her parents, “Look, she's just so smart. You guys don't know what to do with her.” So she was looking for a story and after hearing all the stories of her as a kid I told her I thought she should do her own childhood story. She was so cute. So precocious. She was always climbing trees with binoculars, creating forts, and spying on the neighbors.
When she was about four, she was annoyed with the neighbors so she wrapped a note for them around a rock and she tried throwing it out the window. But the velocity kept taking the paper off so eventually, she picked up the paper, knocked on the door and gave it to the annoying neighbor.
So I said that she should write a story about your life because she was so precocious and so cute and there were so many stories about it. She said, “Yeah, but they don't do leading women or girl heroes.” I responded, “No, sure they do. People want the hero to be somewhat vulnerable so they can rise up and become a hero. They love it. What's more vulnerable than a little girl or a woman trying to make it in life?” So she did. I never helped her write it but she would always bounce ideas off of me. So that's how that started.
FB The lead character's name was Beverly. I thought she maybe needed to increase the size of the production. So we came up with this idea that there was a real conspiracy with Russians. So it became “Helmet Head Goes to the Moon”. I was convinced it was a hit movie and we had a lot of traction.
But then Paramount made Harriet the Spy. That stopped the momentum of Liz’s script. But then I had this other kid’s idea, which was based on this dog in Telluride. It was called Dog Breath, which was funny but I didn't think it was a big movie title. Then Liz said, “How about Eating Avalanches?” I said, “Okay, now that's pretty cool. That's memorable.” We developed this story that took place in Telluride about this dog that would go up the mountain with its owner. It became like a Goonies-style treasure hunt. In Telluride, they had this old mining town that still had all of the shafts and you could go down and tour to see what it was like in the early 1900s. But Liz was so much fun and so creative and she really created a lot of empathy with those characters. We worked on that for so many years. I loved working with her. We would butt heads a lot, though, because I would work from the plot side and she hated working from the plot side, she only wanted to come from the character and the inspirational side.
But the most significant aspect of us working together was her writing on the Hatter Mgraphic novel series and all of the wonderful characters she came up with. Where do you think she got this inspiration from? You talked about her as a child being precocious and super smart. She was way ahead of her time in terms of focusing on women characters. That was one of the reasons she didn't think these movies would get made because they were female-led. Now, almost all of the television and films for a period of time were women-led, which was a nice reversal. Sadly, she wasn't around to see the transformation, but she came up with some amazing characters - Realm, Shaman of the White Flower Tribe, from graphic novel number three, The Nature of Wonder, or Jet Seer, which is one of her favorite characters. Did she talk about these characters and how they were coming together?
GM Liz was an assertive person. She was the leader of her gang back in Eaton, New York. She was the class clown and always instigated stuff, like the high school graduation prank. Everyone got in trouble. Liz was a bad liar so she always got caught. She got caught shoplifting because she was such a bad liar.
All the characters are her. I was reading Zen of Wonder, and they're all her, Hatter M included. She had that very rational, realistic side but she had the other side where she was just surreal and liked to be inspired by thoughts that came out of nowhere. I always encouraged her to write women leads because my mom was really important in my life. My mom was such a strong person and Liz was the same way. A very strong, capable woman.
FB You’re also a very creative person. You've been an artist and you're an actor. What other things have you done?
GM I booked that video job.
FB Congratulations! You owe me lunch.
GM I will pay for lunch. It's being produced by Tennyson, that huge Chinese company. They’re drawing up the contracts this week. They’ve written me into the cast. I didn't book any of the two characters I did, but they liked me so much they're writing me a character. And I may do other characters as well in the project.
FB You and Liz had a really unique relationship. I'd like you to talk about that a little bit but also the creative space that you lived in. I was always struck by the art on the walls, the spontaneity, the affection, and the path less traveled you both took. Both creatively and in terms of how you see the world. The two of you were so in sync and you were so compatible, which doesn't seem like the most romantic thing, but compatibility is ultimately so romantic. Because when you feel compatible, you feel yourself. And whenever I was in your presence, you both felt like yourselves yet you also felt like one. Is that accurate?
GM Whenever I went to the restroom if the door was unlocked, Liz had a camera and she’d just bust that door open. There are so many pictures of me on the toilet going, “Liz why do you do that?” She’d say, “Because Gary, that's the most animated I see you.” When we got our first apartment together, I remember, she would get a bucket of water whenever I went to take a shower. She’d have me screaming. We’d be laughing so much. At one point the neighbors were like, “Shut up!”
FB I love doing this podcast because you don’t normally get stories like that in life. Those are very, very funny. She was such a practical jokester.
GM Constantly. It was almost too much. You know how much Liz liked to talk.
FB Would you say that you're super chatty or not?
GM Not at the time. But when she passed away, I missed all that chatter so I decided to become more chatty.
FB With The Looking Glass Wars, the idea behind it is that it's the true story of how Alice came to our world and Lewis Carroll got the story wrong. So Liz wanted to create the Hatter M Institute for Paranormal Travel, which was a group of people who got together to discover the secrets of Hatter’s 13-year travels in our world and she never wanted to break that fourth wall. Whenever we went to Comic-Cons or schools, or did any interviews, it was, “This happened. We're sticking to it. This is the real story.” She was so committed to it and it was so much fun to watch her pontificate on the work that they've been doing or the secret missions they were going on when we would do Comic-Cons. Did she talk about the conception of that?
GM Wonderland is real to Liz. That idea that Wonderland is real, or the realm of imagination is the fourth dimension comes from Edgar Cayce, who was a clairvoyant and psychic in the early 1900s. There's a whole foundation based on him, the Association for Research and Enlightenment. He said that all ideas, all imaginations, are in this fourth dimension, and anything on Earth is imagined there first, and then it’s here. The original, which is in the other dimension, is much more vivid. She took that seriously. When I read Hatter and all the characters, I see her philosophy, because she always wanted to start a religion.
FB That does not surprise me. After the success of Scientology, she was probably thinking, “Yeah, I can do better.”
GM She took those ideas about imagination really seriously. That’s what our conversations were most of the time. They weren’t based in reality. It was, “What if?” and “Maybe this.” So we would go investigate in the Desert Hot Springs and look for clues and stuff like that. We’d play k.d. lang and Sergio Leone tapes in the car while we were cruising around the desert.
FB You guys did a lot of exploring off the beaten track. She was often feeding her imagination and I think it’s so important as a writer, to be very open to receive. I remember her saying one time that ideas are everywhere. They're just all around you. As long as you go out into the world and explore, you will find ideas. You'll be inspired. You'll be touched. She lived that life with you.
GM She did. Liz told me if she were a man, she would have wanted to be a Merchant Marine so she could explore the world. She really meant that.
FB She did a lot in her imagination as well.
GM Physically as well, too, though. Liz was able to take care of herself as well. She had the strongest punch of any woman I've ever felt. Not that she punched me in the face, she punched my hands and stuff. She had great torque in her body. She never wanted to be the kind of writer who was just kind of anemic-looking just typing away. She wanted to experience things. She wanted to be capable out in the world as well. She always tested herself, riding the metro by herself or just driving by herself. Just the challenge of yourself out in the world. I think she put it into her writing as well through the kinds of characters that she admired.
FB She was so well-read. She would introduce me to writers that I had no idea of. I think it was out of that the Wonderland portal idea emerged because she was interested in pop culture but she was interested in pop culture through a unique lens. That Wonderland portal was her baby. She was in charge of the content and she would pull all the content from pop culture and then write whatever she wanted to write. It always seemed to be catching the zeitgeist of what was next.
GM Liz always wanted to be ahead. She had the spirit of a pioneer. She just wanted to be ahead and if you wanted to join, great. If you didn't, that's fine, “See you later.”
FB That’s why she loved that World War II story about the WASPs, the Women Airforce Service Pilots. She came up with Sis Kipling as a character, who had all the agency in the world, all the ability to fly a plane better than the men. Held back by society but damn determined to bust out and to make a difference. I see how much of herself was in the characters she created. That’s where the best writing comes from. When you put yourself out there, people feel it, then it comes off the page the way it's meant to come off the page.
She was terrific. I really miss her deeply. The conversations, the back and forth, and the little Christmas presents that would show up in my inbox. She was funny at Comic-Cons. I'm very outgoing and I'm sticking my hand out, stepping in front of people, and waving them over to the booth. But when Liz started talking to people, they would lean in and she would engage them on a deeper level. I was giving them the elevator pitch and she was giving them the reason they should really care. It was really impressive to watch, her passion for the inside game of what the graphic novel was about, or a character she introduced or invented. I also miss getting her perspective on things.
GM When she was ill, her friends had come from New York to help out the last two weeks. They were more in grief before she passed away and she was actually trying to cheer them up and help them. And I thought, “Why does Liz have to do this?” But she was good at that stuff. I never saw that side of her before that time.
FB She was really nurturing, especially in the creative sense. “Let’s all come together. Let’s deal with this. I think I have a solution. I think I have a point of view. This is going well, let me take that off your plate.” She was incredibly giving like that. But the longest lasting really comes down to the work and the five graphic novels. If you read those graphic novels and look at the back matter and think about other comic books, you will see an enormous talent in Liz. She came up with almost all of that back matter. All of it was important to her to contextualize these ideas in the book, but to contextualize Wonderland, the power of imagination, these characters and where they came from, and then the fun. I want to lean into how much fun and how comedic she could be.
GM I read her graphic novels and I said, “You got that comedic rhythm.” She said, “Really?” She had no training in that at all. It was natural to her, in both writing and in life. She just had that rhythm and timing.
FB You write you write from being, which is exactly what she did.
GM That’s why Helmet-Head was so successful. It was her.
FB That’s still an amazing piece of work. I was thinking about how I could turn that screenplay into a book.
GM We read that several years later and we were both so shocked that she didn't realize it contained a lot of the things between her and her parents when she was a little girl. She exposed a lot of things. She had no idea she wrote that stuff. She really didn't. It’s like, she subconsciously put it down on paper.
FB I have a lot of different drafts as well, but I think it would make a great book. Tsunami Surf Sisters is going to make a great graphic novel, which we at Automattic are in the middle of creating and expanding. We’ve been really inspired because it seems so perfectly timed now. She was really ahead of her time. Tsunami Surf Sisters is about a bunch of female surfers who are interested in what's happening to the oceans. So it has an environmental slant to it. If there was a relevant time, I think now is as good as any. We've been working on it as a graphic novel and certainly want to honor Liz’s contribution.
I'm also keen on Sis Kipling as a graphic novel as well. Liz and I learned a lot of television and movie projects stall out whereas writing books and graphic novels, you have the full experience of creating something, publishing it, and then taking it out to the audience. It feels no different than my movie, There's Something About Mary, than going into a Comic-Con and selling a copy of Zen of Wonder, and having the readers come back and say, “When's the next one coming out?”
How much interest did Liz have in writing novels?
GM I remember her saying that full-on novels are just too much work and take too much time. She likes short, fast, funny things that had a point.
FB That's why she liked scripts and graphic novels because you can write those relatively quickly. They're dynamic in the creation and they're collaborative, which was perfect for her because she was so outgoing. We did all of our best work in coffee shops just sitting there talking.
GM I remember so many of them.
FB What was Liz's or your introduction to Alice in Wonderland? Did that subject come up much in your life together?
GM It was a constant thing. Alice was such a big part of our lives. But in reading the characters she wrote, each one is a part of her. They seem to be living, like dream symbols. Nekko was the Zen part. Alan Watts was a Zen advocate and also Eckhart Tolle, who is huge now, (as you said, she was always ahead of her time). He wrote The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment, which is basically mindfulness and being present.
FB That's absolutely true. I remember she introduced me to Alan Watts. Nekko was the Zen guide for Hatter in book four, Zen of Wonder. She also created Little Dick, who was also in book four.
GM And Mr. Murakami, where Hatter said, “The crapper?!” Thanks, Liz.
FB That’s very funny. Really relevant given where this conversation started her taking pictures on the crapper. Now we know an inside joke that I did not know about.
GM This is actually a dream from last night, I was in bed and she was poking me in the bed and I heard her laughing. Then the last thing was you and I were walking in Santa Monica on Fourth Street and we got to the overpass over Ocean Avenue. You said stop, “You're ready there and you're gonna take photos.” I said, “Okay, Frank. I like this like that.” And you gave me some little toy butterflies to pose. I couldn't hear you because when I said “Frank, you didn't finish your sentence!”
FB She talked a lot about dreams. She talked about mindfulness a lot.
GM She was very much into it. She was taking cold showers back then. Which is really big now in all the longevity stuff. She used to take cold showers in the morning and she would pound her chest.
FB As I said, way ahead of her time. What was her first introduction to the classic Alice's Adventures in Wonderland?
GM I'm sure it was in school but she never really talked about that much. She got into Alice only when she started collaborating with you and she started expanding. I think she wanted to update it. Add more to it.
FB Suddenly, we both became really aware of Alice and pop culture. “Did you hear that band has an Alice song?” Or she would send me a piece of art from a garden where the plants were Alice-themed or cut out.
GM I think she felt that the film and story were going to become not so literal and not so black and white, because I think I really believe people can understand metaphor now. Or accept gray areas, whereas before it had to be this way or that way. I really feel that Liz felt that everything was going toward where one symbol would mean many things. It wasn't just one thing and there were many gray areas. In a way, everything’s become surreal. It's almost unbelievable.
FB If you’ve just reread Zen of Wonder you can see she really communicates that successfully.
GM She does. She didn’t respect the powers that be, the elite. She felt that an individual had their own power and they could do whatever to make a difference.
FB Do you remember she came up with a character for Whoopi Goldberg, the Queen of Clubs? The Queen of Clubs is best friends with Redd except she doesn't believe in Redd’s ruling theories so she's working behind the scenes. Then Redd finds out and it’s no good deed goes unpunished, off with the head. Liz would laugh and say, “Whoopi’ gonna die.” Then I had to tell Whoopi that on The View. It turns out that Whoopi Goldberg is a huge Alice fan and was in the TV movie. She narrates the Alice in Wonderland statues in Central Park in New York.
FB The outpouring of support from her friends who reached out to me when we all got the news that her illness was terminal, which is a really hard moment in life to contemplate. She often shared with me some of the pain she was in and in doing that, I felt like I was a little bit on the journey with her. Because I know she was really private. And she didn't, but we had
GM Most of her friends didn't know. She didn't want to tell anybody.
FB Why do you think that is?
GM She was so into organic food and cold showers. She said part of it was that she was embarrassed. With doing all that, that happened.
FB She described this growth that was in her stomach as this kind of alien. In the end, she just wanted it to get out and move on. I just thought she was incredibly brave and it really revealed, yet again, another side of her courage and her sentiment because she didn't seem that afraid. Even though she was taken young, she prepared herself. She used to tell me, “Check in on Gary.”
GM She was always concerned about me because I was not worldly at all back in those days. I became so after Liz left because I had to.
FB Thirty years is a long stretch with one person. It was a really great, successful run.
GM She lived a very full life. Maybe two or three lifetimes full and I told her so. She knew it. She did not die perfectly preserved. She was worn out because she did so much. That's the way to live.
If you just look at you and your family, the Beddors, you guys race cars, you’re flipping in the air off of ski jumps and risking your life or being paralyzed. You guys weren’t trying to stay perfectly preserved. You had the Sin Bin and, sorry about the Sin Bin, maybe your friends don't want to hear about that. Your mom was the fastest car driver in her age group. She beat your father who was a big, wheeling dealing business guy. You guys live fast and full.
FB Thank you for that. The Sin Bin isn’t a big deal other than for my mom. I had moved out to Salt Lake City and was on the U.S. Ski Team. I had made a little bit of money and I bought a condominium. Very modest, but I bought a condominium and I called my mom and told her and for whatever reason, my mom associated that with a “Sin Bin” as she called it. “I don't know what you're doing living in a Sin Bin.” Somehow, condominiums were different from houses or apartments. I guess she had seen too many teen or college movies. I teased her relentlessly her entire life about the Sin Bin.
GM I’m sure it was squeaky clean.
FB It was far from squeaky clean. Squeaky maybe. Having a full life is what we all hoped for and Liz did. She made my life so much more exciting and richer. I really learned how to collaborate and communicate with somebody on both the creative side and the friendship side because, after 28 years, you're gonna have your differences and you have to sort those things out. I've been lucky that I have a lot of long-term friendships and I attribute that to taking responsibility for my part of differences and being able to express that. She was equally good at that, which makes for a good friendship.
GM I related to a lot of the messages from Nekko to Hatter because Liz told me that she always saw me as Hatter. Not that I'm trying to get myself into your movie.
FB You’d be a good Hatter.
GM Nekko’s messages to Hatter were, “Don't be so rational. You gotta be open. Gotta be in the moment. Gotta be spontaneous.” Liz even got me to take an improv class. I've had many dreams since reading Zen of Wonder. I think one of the reasons she wrote Zen was to provoke insightful dreams in the readers, because all the characters are so surreal.
FB She had all those Japanese demons which I didn't realize there were so many.
GM For everything.
FB I thought Catholicism was scary.
GM Catholicism is scary.
FB You drew some characters for Liz and me for one of the graphic novels. You drew a Milliner, I believe.
GM Yes, a Milliner. Sarah, your producer, sent them to me. I don't wanna brag, but I was surprised by how good they were. They're very flowing.
FB They're really good.
GM I mainly drew them for Liz because I think she always wanted me to be a visual artist. When I was young, that's what they said I should be. I told everyone I was gonna become a graphic artist. I didn't know what it was but it sounded really good and adults approved of it. “I'm gonna be a graphic artist. I'm gonna go to art school.” I was in line to do it until some other grade school kid's mom called my mom and asked, “Which art school is Gary going to because I want to send my daughter?” My mom said, “What are you talking about?” But yeah, I left it for Liz to show you. She was encouraging me to do that. I like him. I was surprised.
FB I've gone back and looked at a lot of different artists and I've been surprised in terms of the different styles and what people have been able to produce in the world of Wonderland.
GM Originally, I guess Hatter was supposed to be bigger and bulkier like a bodybuilder. But I remember telling Liz, “No, I think you should be because of his skills, more like Bruce Lee.” More like a swimmer with a more athletic build and able to move quickly and all that just popped up.
FB That was a really good choice. I think Bruce Lee is the perfect prototype for Hatter, a stranger in a strange land with a remarkable set of skills that many people underestimate. You get the satisfaction of the comeuppance for the know-it-alls or the baddies who think they can take anybody.
GM No matter what Tarantino says, Brad Pitt cannot beat Bruce Lee.
FB That's for sure. I'm going to keep you posted on the creative material that we’re trying to birth into the world that Liz was a part of, whether that's Tsunami Surf Sisters, Sis Kipling, or Helmet Head. I was even thinking Eating Avalanches might make a nice nostalgic adventure story. So we keep her memory and her work alive.
I'm going to take the graphic novels and repackage them. I think as we move forward in terms of getting a TV show or a musical going, there's going to be a resurgence in interest in reading the graphic novels.
GM I'll be going to Peru from the 14th to the 25th and apparently, there's an underground city underneath Manta Picchu. I'm hoping to bribe somebody like $1,500 or something to get under there. We have a shaman, Don Juan, who's going to be leading some meditation so maybe he can get me into that underground city and I'll report to the Hatter Institute.
FB For any Hatter sightings or exotic artifacts, you might discover.
If you were a character from Alice in Wonderland, either my book or from Lewis Carroll's book, would you think you're Hatter Madigan, as Liz suggested? Or do you have another idea?
GM That or the free ghost Mr. Murakami, from the outhouse.
FB Okay, the character that you already are. All right, good. Thank you, Gary. Thanks for going down memory lane with me about one of the most important people in both of our lives, Liz Cavalier.
Put to rest any delusions or disinformation you may have of the tea-guzzling madman of Alice in Wonderland and prepare to expand your consciousness with the story of the real Mad Hatter and his relentless search for Alyss, the lost Princess of Wonderland. In The Looking Glass Wars, Royal Bodyguard Hatter Madigan was ordered by Queen Genevieve to take Princess Alyss and leave Wonderland after a bloody palace coup staged by the murderous Redd. But while escaping through the Pool of Tears (the portal from Wonderland to our world), crushing centrifugal force pulled them apart. Hatter finds himself in Paris in 1859, shockingly separated from the child he had been sworn to protect. Crisscrossing the globe for 13 years in search of the princess, Hatter was aided by some of our world’s smartest and bravest women. These characters form the “syndicate” of women around the globe who have met this mysterious, gallant, stoic, otherworldly, and relentless bodyguard. Each vowed to assist him in finding Alyss and serving Light Imagination.
Hatter M - Book 1 – Far from Wonder
Magda Pushikin – An ambitious reporter covering Budapest. Location: Moscow
A glamorous and pushy Russian newswoman determined to track Hatter Madigan and uncover his mission. During her sleuthing, she and Hatter end up joining forces to rescue a group of schoolgirls including Girl 42 – a seemingly deranged and uncontrollable child with an uncanny ability to channel other people’s thoughts, Wonderland, and blue butterflies.
All are imprisoned in a sketchy orphanage run by proponents of Dark Imagination.
Magda forms an unbreakable bond with Hatter and promises to help him with his search for Alyss in any way she can.
Hatter M - Book 2 – Mad with Wonder
Sister Sally - Bible Belt healer in America’s South Location: New Orleans
Hatter learns of this glowing girl and her mission for mankind and believes she may be the lost Alyss. He tracks her down only to see her snatched by a local slave trader/soul stealer (Van de Skulle) with ties to Redd’s Wonderland. Hatter rescues Sister Sally and a strong alliance is formed. She owes Hatter her ‘soul’ and is determined to be a faithful friend for as long as he needs her. Sister Sally’s healing abilities are epic and she has a direct line to God. You know you’ve got a good friend when they’re a friend of Jesus! Amen.
Hatter M - Book 3 – The Nature of Wonder
Philomena Ark – Civil War Intelligence Agent Location: Washington D.C.
Philomena, the fierce, pigtailed, inventor of the ray rifle works in the X-Files-styled Illuminated Forces (I.F.), an investigative branch of intelligence dealing with paranormal events. When vials of Dark Imagination are inhaled by the Confederate army in the final days of the Civil War, the Illuminated Forces are ordered by President Lincoln to find the antidote – Light Imagination. At the same time, Hatter Madigan arrives in Washington D.C. in hopes of discovering the answers to secrets that will lead him to Alyss. Philomena is a hyper-intelligent blend of paranormal investigative genius, romantic teenager, and inventive lab rat. If you need it, Philo can build it. Hatter will rely on her futuristic skill set and loyalty as he navigates the globe.
Realm – Shaman of the White Flower Tribe Location: Secret caves within the Grand Canyon
Hatter discovers Realm and her people after the Illuminated Forces airship piloted by Philomena Ark is blown out of the sky by a hail of burning arrows launched by the White Flower tribe.
Near death, Hatter’s life is saved by Realm in a sweat lodge ceremony that reveals her distant ties to Wonderland’s Queens. Realm and Hatter are drawn together by their exceptional qualities of duty and service to others. Attacked by the United States army, Realm and her tribe are forced into hiding in the Grand Canyon. Hatter assists the tribe in escaping and Realm is forever grateful. Her mystic abilities to astral project, shapeshift and distill the rare substance known as Light Imagination from the scent of her tribe’s namesake White Flower render her a formidable ally.
Hatter M - Book 4 – Zen of Wonder
Nekko - Twelve-year-old Zen Master. Location: Mountain Top Monastery in Japan.
Hatter meets Nekko on the rooftops of San Francisco after she steals his hat and leads him on a chase to her secret dojo. Nekko recognized Hatter as a searcher in need of guidance and, despite his objections, volunteered her services in his quest for enlightenment. When Hatter meets Nekko, she is in her ‘traveling clothes’ of gangly teenage J-pop Zen adventuress. It is written that when you are ready a teacher will appear, but if that teacher is a 12-year-old girl and you are a high-ranking Bladesman you may discover that all you can do is laugh. Hatter and Nekko’s adventure around the ring of fire begins when they track a stolen samurai sword with a Wonderland connection to San Francisco’s 19th-century hip-hop crime madam Missy Tong and her eager protégé, the outspoken Lil’ Dick. In return for her assistance, Hatter acts as Nekko’s bodyguard during her return to a mountain-top Zen monastery in Japan. After Hatter leaves, Nekko shifts back to her essential ‘in-house’ self, the Happy Cat Buddha. Nekko will be available with wisdom and wit, whenever Hatter’s plans become too serious and he needs enlightenment.
Hatter M - Book 5 – Love of Wonder
Agent Jet Seer – DNA Runner for 21st Century Bio Corp Location: Undisclosed
Jet Seer is an agent from a future that needed saving. As a badass time, traveler, she tracked the glow of Imagination throughout history in search of enlightened ones, men, and women whose incredible minds could inspire her timeline – a time where automation, algorithms, and virtual reality have reduced man to a listless and sedentary existence. From Aristotle to Zappa and everyone in between, nothing could stop the incomparable Jet on her quest.
A mix of Egyptian genetics and Lawrence of Arabia style, Jet is discovered by Hatter and Dalton (Hatter’s long-lost brother) in the desert outside Constantinople singlehandedly attacking a slave caravan in search of a mysterious girl. She is a time-traveling DNA runner hired by a mysterious Bio Corp. Hatter realizes they are both seeking Alyss of Wonderland but for very different reasons. The powers in the future have discovered the source of all Imagination, what amounts to the God molecule that once existed in Alyss Heart of Wonderland, known to be lost in our world for 13 years. Enabled by time travel tech, they have sent this time-traveling bounty hunter back to collect it. Agent Seer is committed to her mission until she meets Hatter and realizes there is a higher calling than DNA harvesting. In the service of Light Imagination, she assists Hatter in locating Alyss. They plan to return to Wonderland together but Jet is arrested by time-traveling agents who arrive to escort her back to the 21st century in virtual handcuffs. But Jet Seer is not deterred. She promises Hatter she will be looking out for him from the 21st century and will do everything in her power to help him. Returned to the 21st century, Agent Seer escapes the agents and starts her own time-traveling agency to serve Light Imagination.
One of my readers was very, very upset with me. I was on a tour of British schools promoting The Looking Glass Warsand, though it had been a great success overall, at that moment I was in the crosshairs of a very cross young man who believed I made a grave mistake. Why had I neglected to tell the story of Hatter Madigan’s 13 years searching for Princess Alyss? It was a damn good question, one I didn’t have a ready answer to. But on the plane back to the States, I thought, “Maybe I could do a comic book about those 13 years.” That’s how the Hatter M graphic novel series came into being.
School visits are one of the more rewarding aspects of promoting and talking about my stories. You’re going right to the source. You have to go out to the audience to understand what your world is and how it's affecting them. Having the feedback from kids in terms of what they like, what they feel is working, and what sparks their imagination is really important.
I met Kira Assad (the writer of the article below) when I spoke at an event hosted by Professor James Blasingame at Arizona State University during the promotional tour for Hatter Madigan: Ghost in the H.A.T.B.O.X. Kira told me an amazing story about how The Looking Glass Wars inspired her to study English in college and to write fiction herself. It’s so gratifying and humbling to know that my work has been a looking-glass through which young people fall in love with reading and storytelling. As evidenced by the stern English lad who inspired six graphic novels, sometimes your readers can provide the biggest sparks of imagination.
All Things Alice: Interview with Adrienne Kress, Part 2
As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.
The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”
For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Adrienne Kress join me as my guest on this episode! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.
Frank Beddor As a kid, the whole idea of identity and trying on these different identities while growing up is really universal. But what's remarkable, since I've been working in the Alice universe, is how deeply seated it is in culture and how Alice has become such a muse for creatives. We never had this conversation. Can you tell us a little bit about Alex and the Ironic Gentleman? I didn't know that it was inspired by Alice. How did you use elements of Alice in your book?
Adrienne Kress The very basic plot is a girl, Alex, has to rescue her grade six teacher from pirates. She was raised by her uncle but he was killed and the only adult in her life who’s a parental figure is this teacher. At the same time, she's found a treasure map, which is what these pirates were looking for. So it's also a treasure hunt kind of thing. Act One establishes everybody and begins the adventure and has pirates kidnap the teacher. Act Three, we go to sea. We’ve got the H.M.S. Valiant, we’ve got our good guys and then we've got the Ironic Gentlemen, who are the pirates. We have a proper Treasure Island-style, Peter Pan-style adventure.
But Act Two is very much Alice in Wonderland. Alex has to get to Port Cullis, which is a port town where she's trying to get a boat. So the journey from her town to Port Cullis, that's the Alice bit and it's very much Alice in Wonderland. She's thrown into a very absurdist world. Even though it's her world, her world is absurd. Everything is very episodic. It starts with a very strange train sequence that's my Beckett, existential absurdism. My very first play was that Waiting for Godot style, the circle that never ends. I find it horrifying and deeply amusing at the same time. So it starts with that and then Alex ends up being plopped in a forest. Then in this forest, she comes across different people who are absurd caricatures or, in one case, an extremely ginormous octopus who’s an older English-style lush actor like Peter O'Toole.
Alex has to help solve its problems to move on to the next step, which is yet another person who needs another thing. She's basically trying to get to Point B but she keeps getting waylaid. I remember my editor being like, “Okay, if we're going to do this, it's not very forward moving so let's make sure that we have no extraneous words.” We did cut one scene where she meets a French horn player, which I was sad about because I used to play French horn which is why that was in there. But she has these scenes and for some readers that’s their favorite bit. I think the Alice fans at heart get it. Then some people are like, “Oh my god, I just wanted to get to Port Cullis.” They wanted that more straight journey.
FB They wanted Treasure Island.
AK Exactly. We get there. I just wanted to do a little bit before that.
FB So if you like Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, Treasure Island, or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, this is a book for you.
AK I did call it an homage to children's lit. It’s the first book I ever finished writing. The first children's book I ever wrote. So everything was very much an homage. Everything was something else. I put friends in it. Previous employers were in it. I tried to represent everyone nicely.
It was just everything I love in a book not thinking it would be published, not even thinking about publishing. Then, of course, there’s the challenge of realizing you have to write a second more challenging thing. I think writing a first book is hard but you're so focused on this crazy huge accomplishment, “I have this goal and it took me 10 years, but I'm going to do it and put everything I've got into this thing.” Then you get published and you start to have a career and somebody asks you for a second book and you're like, “But I can't do what I did. I can't do that all over again.”
FB I thought it was exactly the opposite. There was something about the first one in terms of not having any pressure because you don't think it's gonna get published and you can take 5-10 years, however long it takes. However, once it's there, and you figured out the rules and the logic, then yes, there's a pressure. But so much of it's already a roadmap, and much easier, and the second book certainly took me a lot less time. I did feel pressure from the editors a little bit more, but I was happy that I had already established that, if they liked this world, I'd been working on it. I have all this stuff in a filing cabinet. I'll just pull more stuff.
AK There is a difference. I don't know why I did this to myself. I've now written some series but generally, I always enjoyed standalones. I decided for the second book, I was going to write a completely different story. It was set in the same world but with completely different characters and, a completely different story, and then halfway through, we would bring Alex back into it and stuff. So I think writing a direct sequel has its unique challenges, especially if people really liked the first one. It's like, “Oh, no, how do I make this as well-liked, if not more well-liked too? How do I write the second book, but not rest on my laurels? There are a lot of challenges with that. But I think for me because I decided I'm going to write a second book that's completely not the first, I felt again like I was starting a bit from scratch.
FB That's for sure
You have a whole new series out. You have three books in the Bendy series.
AK The Bendy books are a series, but they're also standalones. So we've done it again. But The Explorers, which is just mine is a proper three-book series.
FB Can you walk us through that? Did you know you were going to have a trilogy when you started it?
AK Yes. It was a three-book deal from the beginning. Just from the beginning, it was a very classic, hoping that each book is their own adventure but it had that very classic overarching arc. They had to collect things and they had to rescue somebody by the end.
FB Were they saying they wanted the book to come out every year or every 18 months? Did you have that added pressure?
AK It was every year or 18 months, I can't remember which, but it was definitely that. So that window where you had to write the whole of the next book and then go through the whole process again and write it in time with their deadlines
FB I found that very stressful, by the way, hitting a deadline for the book. Because they said you're going to lose your audience. The audience is going to find some other series.
AK There's one book in the Bendy book series, which is in the YA section because it’s a memoir. In the very first game, there's a book called The Illusion of Living, which is the memoir of Joey Drew, who’s the Walt Disney of this animation studio. So they wanted me to write the memoir, which was a really cool experience writing a memoir about an adult male for a young adult section. But with these three books, the other two are technically Y.A., there’s less of the pressure that you're talking about, which just blows my mind. “You're going to lose your audience.” Who says that? But that kind of pressure, when the developers of Bendy decided they wanted the next book, I guess they would talk to Scholastic about it, then Scholastic would come to me and say, “You have to get this to us in two months.” That level of fast. It isn't the same way as writing a series where they're like, “We need the next book ASAP for the series.” It was more like, “When we're ready for the next one, we gotta go, go, go."
FB Just to make it clear for the listeners, Bendy is based on a video game. So they needed these books for the day and date of releasing a new game?
AK I don't fully know what the decision-making process is there. I'm just happy to be a part of it. So the second game was released this time last year. I think it's possible that when they finished working on the game, they were like, “Okay, now we would like another book.” They were so focused on the game, as they should be. But I believe it was a year from being told they’d like another book. So that's even before I've written an outline to send to them. It was a year, from that point to the release of the most recent one. This time last year, I would have been knee-deep in writing it.
The most recent one, Fade to Black, came out at the beginning of October and I don't think I had started writing it last year at the beginning of October.
FB Let me just get all these titles right. So Bendy and the Ink Machine: Dreams Come to Life was book one, which came out in 2019. Did you have to audition for this? Send in an outline and based on the outline, they chose you or did you have a pre-existing relationship?
AK I think they reached out to maybe four other authors and there was very little that they required. They wanted it to be Y.A., set in the studio, the games take place decades after the studio is over, so essentially, they wanted it set in the 1940s. That's about it. Then I came back saying I'd like to do an apprentice who's 17, and works in the art department because obviously, the whole point of his game is art. So let's put them in the art department. They liked that and they were thinking the exact same thing. At that point, all of us who they had asked wrote pages. I think they wanted about five pages but I asked if I could submit 15. So I did the opening which is almost entirely the same opening of Dreams Come to Life. I guess they liked it, which was very nice.
FB And the second is Bendy: The Illusion of Living. The third one is Bendy and the Ink Machine: The Lost Ones and the most recent book is Bendy: Fade to Black.
Also, it was published through Scholastic, which is great because they have such a far reach and they were your original publishers as well.
AK They were the ones who published Alex and the Ironic Gentleman. They were the very first.
FB You're keeping it in the family. That must have been nice. Do they have an editor that they assigned to these books?
AK So it's fascinating and goes back to what I was saying about reluctant readers. They have an imprint called AFK, which means Away From Keyboard. For those who don't know your acronyms, which I did not, that's a very cool online acronym. They did the Five Nights at Freddy's books, which are massive.
I don't know when they actually started the imprint or whether it was on the back of how successful the Five Nights at Freddy's stuff was but they do all these video game tie-ins. My editors have all been incredible. What I really liked about it beyond it being fun is that they have this imprint that's all focused on video game tie-ins and you're getting all these readers like me, reluctant readers, who might not be into a book going “Well, that is my favorite video game.” I get it all the time from kids and teenagers, “I hate books,” or “I don't like reading. I've never really read a book. But I read this one because I love Bendy and it was really good.” I hope that the Bendy books spark that realization of “There are books for me. I just have to find them. They might not be what even the school is showing me but somewhere there are books for me.” So as the reluctant reader I really, really love that.
It’s so fun to read certain reviews, like on Goodreads, where they said the author didn't have to go this hard. No, I did. I have to get themes. I have to get morals. I have to get complicated ethics questions. I love that I'm able to do that and sneak that stuff into these books. Then next year, they're adapting the first book into a graphic novel, which I'm also super into. I've got a graphic novel of my own that's coming out in 2025 because it takes forever. It’s 250 pages and this incredible artist, Jade Zhang, has to illustrate it. I don't know how she's doing it. To me, it seems fast. But they're releasing Dreams Come to Life as a graphic novel next year. Again, I love that because I think graphic novels also open the world of reading even more.
FB Are you adapting your own book, the prose, into the graphic novel or are they hiring somebody else to do that?
AK They've hired a writer named Christopher Hastings, who's done this a fair bit. When I was first told there was going to be a graphic novel I was like, “They probably already have somebody but I could do it.” And then I thought, “No, even though I know how to write a script, how on Earth do you make that book that's almost 300 pages into a graphic novel?” Even if it's got the same number of pages, it's not going to be that same length.
FB Let’s go to your graphic novel because that's fascinating. I wrote my prose and then I had no idea what I was doing and then I did a graphic novel and I look back on it and go, “Wow, I made so many mistakes and set up this so terribly.” But it was really, really fun to do and now I understand how different it is. Can you speak to writing your first graphic novel?
AK The way that one writes a graphic novel is you have page numbers, specific pages that you have to dictate, and then what happens in specific panels on those pages. That is what is so challenging. I love it. I think very visually to begin with and I've read a lot of graphic novels. So I felt very comfortable playing around with how to use the space and what to do. I have a friend Stephanie Cook, who has a lot of kidlit graphic novels out now, and also is an editor, and she does tons with graphic novels in the comics community in general. So we met up, and I'm like, “Help me.” She told me generally, for middle grade, you don't want more than five panels on a page. Very pragmatic things like that which were very, very helpful. But generally, I had a good vibe, I had a good sense of aesthetics.
But what I didn't know until I was going back over it myself, and then working with an editor on it, was how hard editing a graphic novel is. Because in a book, screenplay, or play, if you need an extra bit of dialogue or an extra section to fully understand what's happening, “Sure, I'll put it here.” But if you add a single thing to a graphic novel script, it’s Tetris. You add another panel, and then that fifth panel has fallen off the page. Can I fit it into the next page? Or can I make this page six panels? Or do I need that panel? Maybe I can get rid of that panel? Or do we move everything down? But of course, there are two-page spreads and you have to make sure that you have pages two and three side by side. It can't be three and four because they're on opposite sides of the page. It's math.
FB Every page you add is hundreds and hundreds of dollars for the artists because they get paid by the page unless you make a deal with them where they're part of the authorship. I found the editing process really, really challenging, as well. But the heavy lifting is the artists. Also, the artists can say, “Hey, I can't fit all those panels,” or “There's so much dialogue in this particular panel, we're going to have to move it around a little bit.” I was really leaning on Ben Templesmith.
AK I've given so many challenges to Jane. So the story is called Ghost Circus and it's about these two kids and we meet these ghosts at the circus.
FB Not in the H.A.T.B.O.X.?
AK No ghosts in the H.A.T.B.O.X.
FB It's in the circus, not the H.A.T.B.O.X. Okay.
AK There are flashbacks to how the ghosts became ghosts and they're set in all different time periods. So Jade’s drawing 1930s New York and then the savanna with elephants, plus the main timeline we're in with the ghost circus itself and all the characters there. It's so impressive. I feel like I'll know whether or not she had issues or whether she solved them. I think there's one or two times she'll do something with a couple of panels and I'm like, “Oh, yeah, that makes more sense.” But maybe just because I was so aware of the middle gradeness of it all, that was very much at the forefront of my mind. So being aware of the number of panels I needed per page. Then before even Jade came on board, editing it and working on it with the editor, he'd be like, “This is too much though. We're not going to fit that dialogue on our panel.” That’s where the math came in. But it was an incredible learning curve.
FB But being a playwright, you really had a handle, because that is the closest form to writing for graphic novels.
AK One hundred percent. Thank goodness I had that experience. Because I did look at other people's scripts, I wanted to learn, something even just as simple as page one, panel one. I wanted to know how that works. It’s great to have that reason for us to look at what other people have done but it didn't feel awkward because graphic novel writing comes from playwriting and the scripts look like a play.
FB My wife and I are working on a graphic novel and this is her first graphic novel but she had been a staff writer on the show Bones. So she sort of understands but we were having the simplest conversations, “So, on the one page, is it panel 1 through 5, and then on page two, it's panel six, do you continue?” “No, it's just one through five and then the next page is one through five.”
AK That question makes perfect sense. Like, “You're not repeating the same pattern?”
FB But this time we hired an editor from the very beginning and said, “Okay, here's the basis of the story.” Then he was saying you have to have a sensitivity reader read it because some of the names and some elements don't quite line up based on the story. So we've done that. It's really a science, as you say, it's a math question. There is a lot more going on in the world in terms of when you create something to make sure it's accessible to all.
AK I do think it's quite wonderful because I think we've been using sensitivity readers for a while, as authors. Reaching out to people we know or asking our friends, “Hey, do you know somebody who might be able to look over this section because I want to make sure this is as correct and sensitive as possible?” It’s all kind of already existed but I like that it’s been codified as a proper job. It's something that I think is more front and center of awareness, which I think is important. We had one, specifically for Bendy: Fade to Black, which is set after World War II and the dad has PTSD from the war. It's thematically important to the story. The whole story is actually about PTSD and mental health, and living with that sort of trauma. I did my level best, researching and trying to make things as sensitive and as authentic as possible, but Scholastic did give it to somebody to read over just to make sure that we were doing it right.
FB I agree with you. The level of subtlety is really different and we must be mindful. For the graphic novel my wife and I are working on in particular, the characters all come from different places and we wanted to make sure that we were honoring everybody's heritage and getting it right. Are you interested in World War II much after doing that research?
AK It’s one of those things that I think is by virtue of being a cinephile there are so many movies about World War II. But then, for my generation, it impacted our grandparents. So it's a very present thing. You've got a real direct connection versus perhaps other history that feels like it's almost a story. You don't have that visceral connection, which is why I think I might have struggled with other history classes and other history. It wasn't until I started doing art history where you could actually go and see the actual works and connect to the reality of it that I realized I did like history. I just need to consume it differently.
There are a lot of phenomenal YouTube shows that are about the domestic side of history. So a day in the life in Victorian England. What did you eat? Where do you sleep? With the first Bendy book, they wanted it just after World War II. I had been to New York and somebody recommended the Tenement Museum in the Lower East Side. They found a boarded-up tenement that hadn't been renovated, and hadn't been touched, and from there they started reaching out to families generationally for stories and objects, they looked at census information. What it's become is you go on these tours and it's like just walking through history. You’re there. You're seeing and touching everything and it was incredible. Shortly thereafter, I got the gig for the book and they wanted it set in the 1940s and I was like “Okay, I’ll make it New York.” I know their lives. I know where he lives.
FB That's great. You were destined to write these. Are there going to be more books in this series?
AK It’s been such a pleasure and I really enjoy working on them. I know the developers are very focused on the next games as well. They’re very sweet about it, which I'm grateful for because I was very nervous with a pre-existing fan base. I felt the same way about Hatter Madigan.
FB That was really fun, working on Hatter Madigan: Ghost in the H.A.T.B.O.X. together. I knew I was in good hands when you came up with the idea that he was an insider and not an outsider. Your rationale was that Harry Potter had done that to such great success and there are a lot of other stories that do the same thing, that Hatter being an insider would make the story in this book unique. Once you pitched that, I said, “Okay, that's a very smart idea.”
AK Thank you. It was so much fun. The world is, God…creating that world the way that you have, with literally an encyclopedia, is so phenomenal and so intimidating as a writer. I admire so much just the depth of the world-building you had. As we were talking about with Alice in Wonderland, that's what's so great about all these adaptations of Alice is everybody's unique perspective.
FB I was really trying to create a jumping-off place. Take some of the motifs and then use that creativity and share the sandbox and see what other people can bring to it. In every conversation I had with you and with other creatives, it doesn't work unless you bring yourself to it. You bring something unique that you can do. That's what I'm looking for. I don't want to be precious. I want to actually break away from it a lot more because I've gotten so focused. I think about it in a loop and I can't break out of it unless I have another voice.
AK That’s so fair. You were asking me about the adaptation of Dreams Come to Life. There is no way, with the narrowness of focus that I have, that I could possibly bring a unique look to that book. But a new person adapting it would. That’s the crazy part, isn't it? Getting to write and make stuff up as a job.
FB How do you balance writing your own work, adapting something, producing, and auditioning? What's the day-to-day balance that you try to accomplish?
AK What's balance? I wish it felt more like I had a plan and I really stuck to it. The truth is, it's a little bit flying by the seat of your pants. I can't speak to what they are but I've got two write-for-hires that just happened this month. So right now balancing those…and I feel very good about the plan because the jobs are so vastly different. There are a lot of reasons why I can do that. I wouldn't always say yes to doing two projects right at the same time but these worked very nicely together, they complement each other. But this summer, I had no writing, anything. I didn't have edits. Nothing was sorted that way. So I decided I really wanted to write. I have a middle-grade story that's much more in the style of Judy Blume. So not fantastical in any way, more coming of age. I’ve been really wanting to write it for a few years so I'm like, “That's what I'm doing this summer.”
It takes place over a summer so it felt like the right temperature because I'm in Canada and we only get this so much. That's with my agent and we'll probably go on submission to publishers in the new year. But I'm glad I did that, over that gap in the summer, because then these projects came along and it would be sad because I don't think I would have been able to balance them with my original work. The key is taking advantage of moments. If you can't plan everything out ahead of time you can still have a sense of how long a project will take and maybe when that's done I’ll do this thing that’s more in my control. The pet projects that might not have a home yet. You have to still honor and give space to that project.
FB You had a good summer. You finished a new book and you had a movie come out.
AK Post on the movie was a long post. There was no way you could focus on anything else. I was also injured at the time so that didn't help. I think you're well aware that moviemaking can be entirely consuming.
FB When you're on set, forget it. You only have so many hours in the day and then you're gonna lose crew and locations.
AK Exactly. If I was just acting, that would be different because you have a lot of downtime as an actor on a set. That's a great time to maybe just get a few words in the computer. It's much easier to multitask. But as a producer and as a writer on it, you do not have the same level of free time.
FB You said fly by the seat of your pants and one of the reasons for that is so much of the work is speculative. There’s the focus you need to finish your book that you're not getting paid for or the movie that has enough financing just to get it made, but you're not making any money unless the movie sells. Then depending on how many bills you have to pay it's like “Okay, where am I putting my attention?” If I need to pay bills, I need that work-for-hire stuff, or for this movie, let's gamble and see if we have a little payday at the end of it. It does feel like when you're doing so many different mediums, you'll fly by the seat of your pants because there is no structure to it. It's really a self-generated structure. That's not so easy.
AK A lot of people I talk to, even writers who are also doing a day job, I’m like, “Oh, if only I had all that free time.” I am very lucky. I get to write professionally as my job. That is an amazing, amazing gift. It's incredible. But there are other challenges. There was a long period where I was writing, especially with Alex and the Ironic Gentleman, but I also had a day job. Even once it got published, I still had a job. That job schedule does actually help schedule out your writing too because you only have certain windows in which you can do it. If you have the whole day, it's very hard to schedule things.
FB I had this equivalent when I had kids and it's like, “Wait a second, I only have from 10 to midnight.”
AK Exactly. It's hard. I do really admire people. There are just unique challenges for all of it. In the end, you have to be your own boss. You have to give yourself your own deadlines. With my deadline for this coming-of-age middle grade that I finished, I was telling friends, “I’m a week behind. I know I finished it the next week, but I really wanted to get it done earlier. I'm really annoyed with myself.” And my friends will say, “But it's your own deadline.” I treat my own deadlines like somebody else has imposed them.
FB I agree with that. I think the more discipline, the better off you are. So yeah.
Before we go, if you were a character from Alice in Wonderland, who would you be and why?
AK That's a good question. As a drama major in my art school, every year you had a different focus and in grade 10 a lot of that was performance, putting together a little production. We were very fortunate in our year that we got to do Alice in Wonderland. I was cast as the White Queen, which is what I wanted and I loved playing her. I don't think I had ever played a flighty character. I tend to get cast as intelligent, grounded human characters. I think the White Queen might have been the first sort of flighty, weird character I got to play. That meant a lot to me. I realized I like playing these characters. I just love the character and her wordplay. Her particular scene that she has with Alice, with all the wordplay, “tomorrow, yesterday, today.”
Growing up, I'd obviously seen the Disney movie. But there's a TV version from 1985 and Carol Channing is the White Queen, and she has a song. I grew up with that version. The Jabberwock was so scary that I couldn't watch half of it because it gave me nightmares, but I still loved it.
FB That is a very, very good answer. It might be the best answer of anybody that I've interviewed because not all have played the character. So it's generational from the 80s.
AK I've always loved her. Of course, I did get to dress as your Alyss and that was amazing. I need to wear that jacket again.
FB If people wanted to start reading your work, where would you suggest they start? Would you say something like Alex and the Ironic Gentleman or The Explorers?
AK I'm approaching 20 years since Alex came out, which blows my mind. It's just a very weird feeling. There's one boy who wrote this really great review. He sent me an email for Alex, probably one of the first kids who emailed me about a book. I reached out and we had this whole chat. He was 13 at the time, and now he’s an author.
But I do think Alex is still out there. It hasn't gone out of print, actually, which is very exciting. A few years ago, pre-COVID, I was in LA and went into The Last Bookstore, and the one thing they had Alex. I was thrilled that Alex was the one that was there. So if you can find Alex and the Ironic Gentleman that was quite seminal as it’s my first book. But if you can't, yes, go with The Explorers because that's out there. That's Random House.
FB Thank you so much. This has been a real pleasure. You have such a diverse creative life. I think it's really inspiring.
AK Thanks for having me. It's so nice to see you again.
All Things Alice: Interview With Adrienne Kress, Part 1
As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.
The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”
For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Adrienne Kress join me as my guest on this episode! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.
Frank Beddor I want to talk about your books and writing. But I didn't realize that you started as a playwright. You started as an actress, as well, so I want to talk about that.
Adrienne Kress I’m also a producer now. So we have that in common. My husband and I produced this very small indie horror movie over COVID.
FB Congratulations on that.
AK Thanks. We wrote it. He directed. I starred in it. We were supposed to go on a honeymoon in 2020 and that didn't happen so we used that money to make a little movie.
FB What does that say about the launch of your marriage?
AK That was how I knew I had met my soulmate.
FB I’m interested in the acting part of it because I started as an actor. I had been doing commercials for ski companies so I caught the bug. You started really young though, as a kid.
AK I did theater school first so I wasn't doing professional gigs until high school. I was studying at art school and doing plays. So it's interesting because with theater acting, even if you're 10-11 years old, there's still all this technique just by virtue of being on stage.
There are definitely habits you learn and then when you get older, and you're suddenly in theater school in England as an adult, they're like, “You need to just relax. You overthinking it. It became less about technique and more about just being in the moment.
FB I found it hard not to try and do what I thought they wanted. The performance versus tapping into my own truth at the moment. Auditioning was very, very scary and daunting. But in terms of the couple of movies I did, I thought, “Oh, if you're just really relaxed, and you start by being yourself and then think about what to bring to it, you find a voice at the moment.” Did you find the same thing? What was your approach?
AK Absolutely. I came to film acting after theater acting. One of the things almost all theater actors will tell you is there's a steep learning curve of doing less, do nothing at all. I found that very challenging, but at the same time, I agree, it's very freeing, with film, to have multiple chances to do some things and multiple takes. You’re also having an intimate moment, just between you and the other person, but there happens to be a camera there. It's very freeing.
But I'm with you on auditions. I think I've gotten to a place now with auditions where I'm just like, “If they want me, they want me.” If they want what I can do and they want what I look like, they will want me. If they wanted someone else then they didn't want me. I know I'm good enough that it's not going to be, “Oh, no, this person is terrible. Why would we work with her?” It's very much centered on what they're looking for on there. I'm a lot more relaxed than I used to be. I used to be so wound up and tried to read their minds. What do they want? Now my attitude is I'm just gonna take advantage of this moment to act because it's not like you get a ton of gigs.
FB I was shocked at how little you have to do in film. It's you. It's just the thoughts that come into your mind, through your eyes, and in your expressions. If you try, you're dead. You're overacting. That was startling to me.
AK It’s completely different and it’s very hard. It’s tough when people will fall down. Sometimes, actors aren't to blame if there's a bad performance in a movie or TV show but nine times out of 10 what that actor is doing is still very, very difficult. It's all the stuff around it, whether it's the lines or whether they were given time with the work before shooting because I don't think people realize how hard it is to do nothing. It's really, really hard.
FB It’s really the thought process. You have to prepare and you have to get in that frame of mind so you're thinking the thoughts that get communicated. Much like writing. You have this idea that you're trying to communicate with a sentence or a paragraph or a Chapter, and you think, “I think I know what I'm feeling and it's just gonna come off the page. Is there any chance this is gonna happen? Probably not.” At least that's how I felt, there's no way they're gonna get this.
AK It’s the best feeling when they do.
FB Both in acting and in writing. When they come back and ask you, “Subtexturally, what was going on for you when you were creating or writing that scene?” And the same thing with acting. It's so effortless, right?
AK Probably in all areas of life, the more effortless the thing looks the more effortful we're not to assume it is. The more impressed we shouldn't be.
FB That's so true. When I was acting, one of my acting coaches said that if you really want to understand the playwright, you have to understand who they are as a person. Read their biographies or learn why they're telling the stories and that will give you hints into the text. Then she had me write the scenes before the scene you're acting as if you were the playwright. That’s what queued me into wanting to write books because I love playwrights and I think the work is remarkable, how so much of it comes through this dialogue. But that experience of writing out the scene before the scene I was acting was what motivated me to start writing.
So I'm curious about you. First, you had English teachers as parents, that seems like a high bar to deal with. It’s in your DNA. Obviously, you started writing. Tell me about writing plays and ultimately how the process of writing a play might inform the actress you are.
AK I love that question. I was always writing things. My dad taught creative writing, so, when I was five, he’d have me do exercises he was doing with his high school students. I was always creating stories and playing make-believe. But when I came to playwriting properly, I had been a drama major for long enough that I'd seen enough scripts that writing plays came from understanding character as an actor. That has also translated into the book writing subsequently, but with writing plays, as you said, they’re generally very dialogue-heavy. That’s really what you have to go off of as an actor and as a director. I think that led to my very, very dialogue-heavy books. Writing dialogue is probably my favorite thing to do in general and specifically in books and then in one of the Bendy books, The Illusion of Living, I literally just put in a short play. So I guess the acting informed the playwriting, which in turn informed the book writing so it does come back to acting for me, being inside the head of the characters and going inside out. I think there are some authors, like your George R.R. Martins or Tolkiens, who might create mythos and world-building and then think about how to tell the story and which characters they need to tell the story. Whereas I generally come from the germ of the character.
FB That makes sense to me as well. Do you say the dialogue? Do you read the dialogue out loud? Do you play the different parts when you're writing a play or prose? Or do you read it to somebody and see how it works or do you just trust it?
AK I can be just going for a walk or something and then start to create a little dialogue in my head. I do a weird sort of humming, which I only realized I did recently. I'm reading not even just dialogue but any words on the page, but I'm not saying the words out loud. So I'm constantly reading out loud, but it's very small. With plays you often workshop and take them out to actor friends. With books, obviously, I have beta readers as you know. My parents, the English teachers.
FB Really? I have two kids and my son is writing essays for college and I’m like, “Hey, do you want me to read your essay?” He goes, “Oh, no, I'm good dad.” Really? You don't want me to take a look at it? I'm a writer.
AK He can take advantage of it.
FB He came around. But I have to be very careful in terms of walking him through any ideas or changes. If I'm too forceful he shuts down. My daughter doesn't show me anything unless she's under a deadline and she's stuck. How were your parents?
AK They're very good high school English teachers and I’m an only child so I was it. They would go, “Oh, this is an interesting idea. Hey, Adrienne, have you heard of it?” Not just when it comes to writing, there was always a lesson to something or an educational component growing up. Having them look over my schoolwork growing up, it's just the next step.
FB You felt they fostered your work and your homework and your creativity, and you didn't really bump up against them because they were good teachers.
AK They're good at being harsh, which is the point. The good thing about my parents when it comes to this is they're very honest. They've always been very good at being that teacherly, “Okay, so I'm not sure this bit works and I'll tell you why.” But they were also so supportive of all my creative endeavors and very proud and impressed by me, which is nice. It also meant that I had confidence in what I was doing. Even though it always hurts, whether it’s editors or your parents, to hear this isn't quite working or they didn't like this bit. That will always be like a dagger. I also had the confidence that generally, my work was good so I kept moving forward. Also since my first book, Alex, I'll say, “No, I disagree. I want to keep going with this.” I've also always had that relationship. It's not, “We're the parents, therefore we're right and you're wrong.” It's always been a conversation.
FB So you’re equals when it comes to the creative process.
AK Maybe when I was a little younger, I probably couldn't have fought but now yes and it's great. So I have my parents and I also have my agent. She's wonderful. Not all agents necessarily edit and they don't necessarily want to, but she's very good. We’ve been together for close to 15 years. She knows my work inside and out and I really respect her thoughts. Again, it's the same vibe as with my parents.
FB That's what a good editor does. My editor made a point of saying, “This is your book. I love everything that you're doing. Now, I'm going to send you a couple of suggestions.” So after softening me up, then the suggestions come and it’s page after page.
AK I think it's called the sandwich method. Praise at the beginning, then you give your critique and then you end with praise. I've definitely had editors use that on me, as well.
FB What was the first thing that you wrote that was really satisfying and gave you that start of confidence? Was there a moment when you said, “I think I want to do this and I can do this?”
AK I have no clue when but my mom and my dad, specifically with his creative writing, started teaching me creative writing. But, from birth, it feels like I've had competence in my storytelling ability. Writing stories in English class in elementary school was always my thing and I always got really good grades. I had all the validation in the world. I did a book with a friend. She and I were both known for our creative writing and it was so popular that the principal got a copy of it. So I've always had that validation. Then throughout high school, I was doing creative writing classes. But in my last year of high school, I wrote a play for a playwriting class. It was probably one of the first one-act plays, a properly structured play that I wrote was chosen for a student-run one-act play festival. All the producers, directors, writers, actors, crew, everybody were students. One of my friends was chosen to be a director and he chose my play and I was cast in the first play of three. So I was there every night and I would sit at the back of the audience for the third play, which was mine, and listen to it being performed.
It’s what we were talking about earlier when you write something and you hope to get an effect. When people laughed at the jokes right on cue as if they were being directed to, I thought, “Is this a better feeling than acting?” I still don't have the answer, but it was really up there. So I became really interested in playwriting at that one, not so much novel writing. Then I went through drama school for university and in my last year of theater school at the University of Toronto I did another playwriting class and it was taught by this incredible Canadian playwright, Janet Sears, whom I'd studied already. It was this great intimate, seven-person class that you submitted writing samples for to get in. The way she structured it was amazing. The class all bonded and we got on great. The assignment was a one-act play and we had these tutorials halfway through the term, as we were in the middle of writing, and we were just chatting and I was saying, “I'm not sure this might be two acts. I don't know.” And she said, “With you, Adrienne if you want to just make this one act for a two-act play, I'll let you do this. Because I think you're really good at this and I know how much you like acting but I hope you keep writing as well.”
I’m paraphrasing but I just remember the moment. Up until that tutorial session my attitude was, “Yeah, I love to write creatively and I guess I'm good at it. But don't we all like to write creatively?” I guess it was the first time a true professional had called me out as having some sort of skill that was at a certain level that I wasn't aware of myself.
FB Those are really clear moments because of the way that you were describing coming out of the womb almost with a notebook and your dad saying, “Let's get to it,” it was just part of who you are. But we all need that validation or that really clear moment where you see the audience responding as if somebody said, “Hey, by the way, the writer is in the audience. So make sure you laugh at these five places.” Then of course you have a professional validate your work.
AK It was everything. I turned my focus to playwriting after that. I went to the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art and did a yearlong classical acting-specific program. After that, I tried to write some plays to direct and produce but I kept having trouble. So I decided to write a kidlet novel because I really love reading kidlit novels and it was a way to refresh my brain and completely cleanse the palate. It took a year. I’d never actually written more of a novel than 18 pages. So I kept writing and writing and writing and that ended up being my first published novel, Alex and the Ironic Gentleman. So what was supposed to be an interlude sent my career and everything about my life in a completely unexpected direction, which was being a writer of novels.
It sounds so much like actors who accidentally become actors and get the lead in something because they looked right. I never want to give that impression as an author that I just sort of tripped into it. I think telling the history of coming out of the womb and learning how to write, it's been in there the whole time. But it really was a sudden change of trajectory because everything in my head at that point was theater - write a play, direct a play, act in a play. Then Alex came along.
FB Were you writing plays about young adults at the time?
AK No, my plays were entirely about adults. They were sort of absurdist with some shocking moments of violence in them. But I was really into absurd things and I actually did the absurdity thing in Alex and the Ironic Gentleman. It was a very classic children's adventure, episodic adventure, very inspired by Alice in Wonderland. She has her main throughline of trying to go home but then she meets all these weird individuals and has these mini-adventures with them. I really structured the second act of Alex on Alice in Wonderland. Act One was more Roald Dahl-y and then Act Three was very Pirate-y, Peter Pan or Treasure Island. But I had gone from writing total adult stuff to even completely skipping young adult and going straight to middle grade.
FB You said you read a lot of kids' stories growing up or as an adult to relax. Can you share some of those stories with us and what is it about those stories for you?
AK I can talk about kidlit forever. I'm what's called a reluctant reader, which is a term that wasn't around when I was a kid, which is unfortunate because it's tricky to be the daughter of two English teachers and not really want to read. My parents had to do everything to convince me to pick up books but when I did pick one up, I was a voracious reader. I'd read it in a day and then I'd have to read everything by that author because I trusted that I would like that author. But even as an adult, I'm sort of that same way. If I read an adult book, I'm still like, “I don't know, man, I don't think I'm gonna like it.”
But growing up some of the first books that my parents really pushed on me were the Beverly Cleary Ramona books. They’re very entertaining and they're a really easy and fun read. My dad also really loved the adventure books by Enid Blyton. Some elements don't fully stand the test of time but I really glommed onto the adventure part of it. Then as I got a little older I got into Judy Blume. At the same time, my dad would also read to me every night, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, The Hobbit, and all The Lord of the Rings, and he did all the voices.
My dad also introduced me to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy when I was probably 12-13, which changed everything in my brain and really introduced the notion of absurdity and that kind of humor. That’s probably been one of my greater influences. But as I got older, young adult didn't exist as an actual named category but some books featured older protagonists that weren't adults. But you ended up jumping to adult and there were some adult books I enjoyed. I enjoyed Michael Crichton and Agatha Christie. I enjoyed books that had really forward-moving stories. But a lot of adult books I found were depressing and the arcs that the characters go on, by the end, you're like, “Oh, that's sad.”
In my last year of high school, we had an English assignment where we could compare any two books, so I chose Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan. I really dug into those and as I was writing it, I realized what I liked. The idea with these kids' books is you're still dealing with big issues and strong emotions. Anyone who thinks there aren't big issues in kidlit hasn’t read any kidlit. They're just being snobs. The emotions are the saturated colors. They're not quite as messy. I like the saturated feelings and regardless of how dark it gets, and some of them get very dark, they always end on a hopeful note. As cynical as I can get with the world, I am, at the core, very optimistic. I believe in hope. So that's why I love reading those books. I kept reading them after high school, like A Series of Unfortunate Events, which sounds like it shouldn't have hope, but I was reading all of them.
FB I was reading the first book, The Bad Beginning, at a fancy resort, and I was by the pool and this woman was sitting next to me and she goes, “What are you reading? Isn't that for, like, elementary kids?” And I said, “No, it's not actually. It's amazing. You should check it out.” But she gave me so much judgment that I was self-conscious after that. I didn't know people across the pool were going to be judging my book. But A Series of Unfortunate Events is a dark story and just brilliantly told. The whole thing that he uses with vocabulary and spelling and spelling out this is what that means, it’s so perfect for kids, but adults can also read it and go, “That's so clever.”
AK I think the best kids' books and kids' media are written and created on two levels. There’s the level of the audience it’s intended for, let's say the eight to 12 audience. But also, especially with books versus a Pixar film, kids' books are one of the last places where we still read out loud, where we still have an oral tradition. We don't do it so much with adult books. I think the way audiobooks have taken off shows how much we love them. But that communal experience of somebody telling a story is rarer and rarer the older you get. When I write kidlit, I keep in mind that there's going to be a teacher or a parent or somebody reading this to kids. I have some parent easter eggs in there, some jokes that probably the kids won't get yet. But also when the kids come back to it when they’re 10-11 or even in their 20s, they're like, “Oh, I didn't get that joke at the time.” I think there's always that nuance and depth.
But even if there weren't any adult jokes, there's just some great stuff in it. If you like the book, the book is meant for you. That's how I feel about this idea of gatekeeping ages. I actually have a more controversial opinion, which is with adult books and kids. There can be some stuff in an adult book that is intense and maybe certain kids shouldn't read it, but there are other kids who are ready for it. As long as you're having a conversation with them, and as long as you're having a parent or teachers talking with the kids and working through possibly more complicated issues, I actually think that's okay.
FB What Pixar does so brilliantly is that it works for kids and adults. They have that four quadrant thing they talk about in marketing, which is why Harry Potter, became the book that was in the young adult section but all adults started reading it. Then it's okay to read this stuff. But nevertheless, you brought up Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan, both of which, on the surface, are kids' books, but adults started reading them before any kids probably did, certainly with Alice in Wonderland.
AK That’s the other thing. We, in retrospect, recategorize things. For people categorizing The Outsiders as Y.A., I guess it is. I don't know. But the young adult genre didn't exist (when it was published). I understand the need to find places to shelve things and I think that's important. At the same time, new adult is becoming a marketing category and there's been a lot of conversation about how we've lost the category between middle grade and young adult. By putting labels on things, we can exclude things. I think that's just something we know, in general. There’s a benefit to knowing and understanding what a category means and using that in a positive way but at the same time there are people I know who are trying to be published who have books where the characters are 13-14, or even up to 15, and we have the eight to 12 category. Even though 12 and up is the category for young adults, they want characters that are 16 plus. Because of the need to categorize, there is a wealth of books and writers that are being ignored because we don't know where to put them on the shelf.
FB When The Looking Glass Wars was turned down by everybody in the States, my problem was that the lead character started as seven, the next time we see her she's 12, and then she's 18. It was after Harry Potter and everybody said, “Well, I don't know where this fits, and who did you write it for?” I didn't know that there were categories. The categories were just coming into shape.
I think the middle-grade genre or categorizing middle grade is smart because after doing a lot of school visits, those six-, seven-, and eight-year-olds are looking for somebody to aspire to who's not a teenager. So if you have a 13-year-old character, that's pretty spot on. And they do the lion's share of the reading. They have more time.
AK Yes. So you have teachers and librarians who are reading to them and introducing them to these books. We don't have that as much in high school and we certainly don't get opportunities as adults. I'm not a parent myself, but when people become parents, they get that opportunity again, and they get excited. “We get to go to the library and have somebody read to us.” We should have adult reading time because it's something that's in our DNA. We want to sit around the fire and tell stories.
FB So share with us your theory on Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan, because both of these stories have been around a long time. I'm curious when you wrote your paper if you have a theory on why these stories in particular have lasted so long.
AK I had this theory that we were dealing with two main characters, and I'm making Wendy the main character in Peter Pan, who have two completely opposite goals. Wendy’s scared of growing up, but in the end realizes she has to grow up. Whereas I think Alice is feeling frustrated by the grownups and she wants to find a place to belong as a kid. So one character is trying to figure out how to grow up in a way that pleases her and the other one is like, “No, no, I don't want to grow up so fast. I want to stall growing up.” Even though weirdly, Wendy does want to start growing up at the beginning.
But that question of growing up is one of the big reasons they both appeal. Because we've all had our own relationship with growing up. Some people are desperate to get older. I just wanted to be a kid. Teenagers scared me. They scared me when I was a teenager. They still scare me. I respect the heck out of them but they scare me. I liked being a kid and this goes back to the books I like to read. I didn't want to read angsty teen stuff. I didn't want to really read romances. I just wanted to read plot-driven adventures. That's all I wanted. I definitely had desperate friends. “When can I wear makeup? When can I have a boyfriend? When can I be independent?” I think that's very relatable in both Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan.
Then on top of that, they’re so specific. I've been talking to a lot of kids lately about writing and I feel like the more specific you make a character, the more universal it becomes. You have these incredible specific characters like Captain Hook and the Queen of Hearts. These very meticulously wrought characters have very specific aesthetic features and personality traits that just spark so much imagination. On top of that, for Alice, people have always played make-believe with their cards and their chess boards, tapping into a very basic form of make-believe. Which you also get with pirates and mermaids. You get a lot of classic make-believe stuff that was also particularly popular, I assume, at the time of the original Peter Pan play. It was stuff that kids of that time enjoyed playing so that made it also relatable.
I think there are so many universal themes in both of them and then the specificity of the characters and how enjoyable they are contributes to both stories’ staying power. It’s so fun.
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Meet the Author:
After cutting her teeth in live sports television production and scripted independent features, Sarah transplanted from her native state of Indiana to LA where she earned her MFA from the American Film Institute Conservatory. She specializes in genre fusion storytelling, with an insatiable devotion to producing high-quality, character-driven sci-fi. She works at Automatic Pictures as Head of Development where she has continued to sharpen her eye for premium content creation.
