As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a Podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author that draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration. The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

It is my great pleasure to have Vincent Conner, Michael J. Polo and Victor Valdez join me as my guests! Read on to explore part one of our conversation, and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview. For the full transcript with exclusive content, join our private Circle community.

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FB:

Gentlemen, welcome to the All Things Alice podcast. However, for today, I’m going to change it to “All Things Hatter” because we’re going to be talking about your very exciting musical, Mad Hatter: The Musical. I’m going to ask each of you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what your role is in the musical. I’ll start with you, Vince.

VC:

I am the co-creator of Mad Hatter: The Musical. I am responsible for the book. I wrote the story and have been working, since 2018, on building the show. I was the original director of the piece at the London workshop and now I’m stepping into the role of the Mad Hatter in Montreal.

MP:

I’m the composer of Mad Hatter: The Musical. The thing I’m most proud of creatively is the synergy and the creative input that we all have in our collaboration more than anything.

VV:

I am a songwriter on the show and, as Mike said, once the boys got the show going and knew where the story was going, I inserted myself into the project. Their backgrounds are mostly in classical opera while I come from Latin America. I’m originally from Venezuela where I grew up singing pop ballads and that’s what I thrive on so I added that pop sensibility to their classical sensibilities, which is what makes the music very, very different and very, very cool. Also, I’m joining the cast in Montreal as one of the lead characters. Her name is Yola. I’m a Cheshire Cat, which is why my hair is kind of purple-pink right now.

FB:

Before we jump into the whole process, let’s give the listeners the elevator pitch.

VC:

I’ve always been fascinated with the character of the Mad Hatter. As time has evolved over the past 100 years, I think my fascination is also a joint fascination with other people. I’ve always gone down the rabbit hole myself of what his backstory was and so this is a story of a crippled man from boyhood who finds his way to Wonderland. In our post-COVID world, we have a lot of archetypes of Mental Health Awareness wrapped up in the musical and we tend to be in this place in history where we’re fascinated with this idea of the villain.

I didn’t want to make the Mad Hatter a villain, but we played with the idea of him being an antihero, making human mistakes, just as anybody would. Because hatters used mercury back in the Victorian period the Mad Hatter suffers from mercury poisoning, which is in large part why he has become mentally unstable. But there are many different levels of the story. You could take it from the fantasy of Wonderland versus the realism of a man going insane.

FB:

Does the musical go back and forth between our world and Wonderland?

VC:

Yeah, we go back and forth between the turn of the century London and Wonderland. Just as Lewis Carroll uses the rabbit hole, or the looking glass, as a way to travel to Wonderland, we use the Mad Hatter’s hat as a portkey.

FB:

That’s so clever. The hat makes perfect sense. So, what is your story behind the story? I’d also like to know how each of you became involved.

MP:

Vince and I started working together in 2016. Vince was the director, and I was a production coordinator and director, and producer on a show that we did together called Madame Butterfly. Then in 2018, Vince and I started working in Vienna, Austria. We were running education programs primarily in the opera sector, and we started to branch out. So, we went to London in 2018 in an effort to build a new program called the London Summer Music Theater Academy. We booked the theater, we booked the hotel, we booked the rehearsal space, and then we were looking for a show to do.

We were calling MTI looking for rights to do a show, and we couldn’t get granted anything, but we had booked everything in preparation for a 2019 production. We were on a bench in London, and he said to me, “I have a great idea.” And I said, “What’s that?” He goes, “Mad Hatter.” I said, “Mad Hatter, what?” He said, “We’re writing a musical.”

It became quite a journey, as we led into 2019 with the original production, which was very much a student-led workshop with a full ensemble, in a West End theater. It was not only a way for us to work creatively, but then after the production was done, we all said, “Wow, maybe we should pursue this even further.”

It, creatively, forced us to work on a way to identify that this story might actually have a tremendous impact, not only on the audiences that well-received it in London, but that it could potentially expand into other audiences and become a significant work that can compete with many other existing shows.

FB:

Can you walk us through the process? Why do musicals usually seem to take a very long time to come to fruition? What are all the factors that go into getting it ready to put on its feet?

VC:

Let’s first start with how our path is a little different than the normal path. One of the questions was, Why does it take so long to get to Broadway? Or why does it take so long to get to La Jolla? It can start in a few different ways. Traditionally, what happens is a producer who’s produced a musical before will cultivate a creative team. They’ll put together a book writer, and a composer that they like, and begin to generate a story. Over the next three to five years, they’re developing the story through table reads and workshops where they will begin to add equity actors and try to elevate the piece after each hearing and continue to grow it into a product that is then commercialized and sellable so the producer can raise the $20 million it takes to get to Broadway. That’s why it traditionally takes so long.

In this case, Mike and I have the study abroad programs in Vienna, which is an education program with the business model: If you want to be a classical musician, we’re going to bring you to one of the classical meccas, which is Vienna. It’s very similar to London if you want to study musical theater. We sensed this hole in education and we wanted to be at the forefront of changing that horizon and so we got this idea to write a musical and as producers we have already created a space for it.

So, we luckily have built the asset, so that now going forward, the London Musical Theatre Academy is going to be for new musicals where we’re actually developing new work right now aside from Mad Hatter. I think we’ve found a way to help musical theater, not only with our show but in general to bring awareness and to bring new projects to life.

FB:

What you’re saying is you’ve created an infrastructure as creatives, producers, and educators, which allows your musical, and hopefully other people’s musicals, to find their legs and be developed without the traditional process of the Broadway producer.

VC:

Actually, seeing the show, as a creator, was one of the first times in my life that I knew that I was a part of something bigger than myself. It was a very profound moment in my history as a creative. Since then, we’ve had a New York presentation, which is a very traditional step in development. That led us to now, our next step, which is going to be a full orchestra concert, where the music gets to be the hero, in Montreal next week. That is a non-traditional step. We did the industry presentation, and we did a workshop in a non-traditional way, but it’s all connected to the next step, which is really cool.

FB:

Your concert with a full orchestra, you said that’s unusual?

VC:

It’s unusual because there haven’t been many musicals that have been performed with a full orchestra. It’s typically after a show has been on Broadway for 20 to 30 years sometimes. It’s an honor, because Alexandre de Costa, fell in love with the score because of the pop sensibility mixed with this romantic classicism. Our music has a timeless quality that also feels very relevant to today but it also has a sense of nostalgia that translates really well to orchestral music. Oftentimes in my elevator pitch, I’ll say, “If Wicked and Sweeney Todd had a baby, that’s what Mad Hatter is.”

FB:

Let’s focus on the music because we’ve been talking a lot about the orchestral aspect of it but just give us some highlights of some of the different songs and what you’re excited for people to take away from this work.

VV:

One of the things that has been super exciting is seeing how the music has evolved from the beginning up to the final arrangement. For example, the opening number, “Pelt to Felt”. In the song, we learn the process of hatting and how they use the pelts from the animals and use mercury to make the felt to make the hats. It’s so insane. There’s no other word to describe the music. It sounds so amazingly insane. It’s very easy to get into the feeling of the show just from that first number.

I’m very proud of this song called “Out of Sight” that I got to write for the wife of the Mad Hatter. It’s a song about how she and the children see the father figure go crazy, and not be the same person that he used to be and how that shifts the dynamics in the family. It’s a beautifully heartbreaking song of a mother, singing about how she knows her children are seeing their father change in front of them and not for the better. Mike has done a ridiculous job orchestrating. It’s going to be such a tear-jerker. I’m so excited to see people cry.

VC:

We use different mediums of musical genres. We have “In a Mood” with the three Cheshire Sisters and it’s complete jazz, and then we have the Mad Hatter, who has an operatic pop sensibility versus the Queen of Hearts, who is very much on the operatic side. Then we have Mary Beth, the Mad Hatter’s wife, with Yola the Cheshire Cat being extremely musical theater belt. So, we were able to explore different varieties, but still bring the continuity of that melody that makes it all feel familiar.

FB:

I’m curious from a book writing standpoint, where you’re trying to connect the story through the songs where the songs take you from Point A and advance the story yet the book has to be so well written, so the audience can follow the beats and the conflict with the characters. Can we talk thematically about the lead character and his story arc?

VC:

So, where does the story end? We end up at the tea party. That’s where I really wanted to end the story. You hear one of our most memorable melodies from “Will You Be My Wonderland?” and we see Alice and there’s a blackout. Literally, people gasped in London, and we had standing ovations, so it was that surprise effect because there isn’t really much mention of Alice at all, except I did give the Mad Hatter a daughter and her doll’s name is Alice.

But, in terms of the story, we were able to approach this from the idea of building an ark. We didn’t say, “What’s going to happen with the Hatter and only the Hatter?” We said, “Okay, I think that we need to do a quartet with the family.” So we actually decided we wanted to do a quartet before we turned it into the dinner scene, which was how we created “Papa Please,” which ended up being a very Sondheim-y number in the show, where we see conflict happening between the Mad Hatter’s children and then we see the Mad Hatter’s aggressive behavior towards them. Just hinting at the chaos after he has been selling hats all day and working with mercury and all those types of things.

In our story, the Mad Hatter’s mother was a ballerina and his father was a hatter. Historically speaking, it’s in between upper and lower class so I wanted to show that by giving these occupations to these two people who would be in between classes. We explore him not being able to sell any hats and there’s generational trauma that we find out about in the overture, in that the Hatter actually wanted to dance like his mother but his father cripples him so he can never dance again.

We explore this with Mary Beth, the Mad Hatter’s wife. There’s this beautiful duet called “Relax, My Dear,” where she’s trying to let him know that everything’s gonna be okay, and he’ll sell hats tomorrow. They have this beautiful tender moment where they actually dance but he falls because he’s crippled and he can’t hold himself. That triggers a downward spiral of being haunted by his father’s hat, which contains the portkey to Wonderland. Then we explore him being very depressed in London versus finding a sense of freedom and utopia in Wonderland, where he regains his ability to dance again.

We wanted to have the psychedelic effects of Wonderland be explained by something which, in our show, is the Wonderland Crystal, which creates the Wonderland Elixir, which, if consumed, connects everybody as almost a communion. But it also makes you feel the effects of Wonderland. In this case, it heals the Mad Hatter and he’s able to dance again.

To make a long story short, Wonderland is a sense of freedom and utopia for him and then it’s taken from him when his hat falls off. The backstory is that the Mad Hatter’s father did some bad things in Wonderland, and so the Hatter is being punished for his father’s mistakes, so this idea of generational trauma comes back and there are multiple reasons why the Hatter goes insane. Then he does whatever he can to get back to Wonderland, including murdering somebody, so we have this interesting juxtaposition between “off with your head.” We have the Queen giving that energy and then the Queen doubles as the demon that haunts the hat, basically punishing the Mad Hatter.

FB:

The idea that he’s dealing with something that horrific and difficult, and he goes to Wonderland, where he regains his legs and his ability to dance again, it’s a beautiful reflection of what Lewis Carroll was writing about, which was identity, self-expression, and self-determination.

The dancing part of it is really important because it’s the emotional part that you can just feel as you’re describing it. All the other themes that you’re talking about, about all the other characters that come into it, are going to give it richness. But what’s going to make us cry is when he starts to dance, and we’re relating to him trying to find his identity.

MP:

Vince, it might be nice if you share with Frank the moment where Hatter almost imitates his father because I think it’s one of the most pivotal moments of the show.

VC:

The moment that Mike is talking about is when the Mad Hatter gets back to London. He was rejected by the Cheshire Cat, who he had fallen in love with because he had murdered somebody to get back to Wonderland. He stole their portkey to get back to Wonderland because he had to get back to see Yola the Cheshire Cat. When she rejects him, he hits rock bottom. When he gets back to London, he is trying to make sense of what’s happening in his life and his son finds the Crystal and we see a recreation of what happened in the overture where the Hatter senior hits the Mad Hatter and now he is about to hit his son. It’s at this moment that he realizes that he’s lost his mind. He realizes that he is no good for his family anymore and he’s actually hurting them. So, he chooses to go back to Wonderland to accept the punishment from the Queen of Hearts rather than stay and bring his family harm. He’s not a villain but he’s not a hero. He’s not technically doing the right thing but it’s very complex.

FB:

Alice in Wonderland is a work that has literally given us a vocabulary to articulate the times we’re going through. You hear “down the rabbit hole” all the time, “through the looking glass,” and “Winter Wonderland.” Alice is always redefining a generation, and what’s coming out of your musical for sure, is the mental health crisis. What are you hoping your musical will contribute to the vocabulary of the 2020s? What do you guys think?

VC:

I love that in our show, Yola is being played by a man. Victor’s playing a female, which is kind of an ode to the operatic background that Mike and I come from, with men playing women’s roles has been happening since the 1600s. Suddenly, politically, it’s causing World War Three right now in the United States with what’s happening in Tennessee with drag bans. I just saw My Fair Lady, and there were men playing women and women playing men, and yet, it’s being banned in places like Tennessee right now. It’s just another opportunity for us to show, it’s not about gender, it’s about humans and emotion. This idea that fantasy can be fantasy and emotions are emotions. I love that we’re turning a few things upside down like we have the Cheshire Sisters instead of the Cheshire Cat. I just think that we’re being true to ourselves by incorporating this idea of our 21st century.

FB:

I’m so happy to have had this chat. Thematically, you guys have such a strong show but as people, you’re really creative and trying to share your knowledge and your education. You’re also reaching out to give folks a forum, offering them a space to learn. There are so many aspects of how you’re going through life that I think a lot of us hope and want to be able to do – be creative and give back. It’s a beautiful thing to listen to, especially through the Alice in Wonderland lens, a work that’s been so imaginative. It’s been with us for over 150 years and you’re finding a way to make it relevant now in the 21st century.

If you were a character from Alice in Wonderland, who would you be and why?

Go ahead, Victor. I’m going to ask you first just because you have the biggest smile on your face. I don’t know if it’s because you have a Cheshire Cat smile right now.

VV:

Only because it’s so freakin’ obvious. The way that Vince wrote the Cheshire Cats and the Cheshire Sisters is so fun. I love the way that the Cheshire Cats are in our show, and thinking about how they are with how the Cheshire Cat is in Alice in Wonderland, it’s so easy to see how the whole Cheshire race is so fun that I just have to be the Cheshire Cat. I just have to.

FB:

And you Michael?

MP:

Oh my gosh, I don’t know. I think maybe when I was 19, I would be the Caterpillar for sure. Now that I’m 37 I don’t know. I’ve kind of lived through every role. I think right now, I’m currently feeling like the Mad Hatter. But I think Vince is coming into it more than I am.

VV:

I don’t know, Mike, you kind of strike me as the Rabbit.

MP:

Maybe I’m the Rabbit. Maybe that’s it.

VC:

I’ve been really getting ingrained in the Mad Hatter because I’m just performing the role, but I’m actually going to answer it similarly to what Michael said. I love this idea of the Caterpillar because it reminds me so much of my grandfather. In the book, I think the Caterpillar’s portrayed a little bit as a jerk but when I envisioned him, I think of him as more wise and philosophical. That’s really what I want to be.

FB:

Those are excellent, excellent answers. Gentlemen, thank you again, so much. This is just part one. We’re going to have more of the creative crew on and we’re going to talk more about pop culture influences, Alice, and, of course, we’re going to talk more about the Hatter. We’re gonna do a little bit of trivia about some of his rhymes and we have quite a bit more to go through. But until then, thank you for an epic morning of the Mad Hatter and your music.

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