All Things Alice: Interview With Teresa Lin, Part 1

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Teresa Lin join me as my guest on this episode! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.

"All Things Alice" Podcast logo incorporating images of Teresa Lin and "The Looking Glass Wars" musical logo.

Frank Beddor
Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. This week, I am sitting right across from my new guest and I’m a little bit nervous, I have to do a really good job today. I have to be very cautious about the questions I ask and I have to leave a lot of space for her to answer. Not only is she a brilliant writer and a creative force to be reckoned with, she’s somebody I married five months ago. I’d like to welcome my wife and my collaborator, Teresa Lin, to the show. 

We’re gonna be talking about The Looking Glass Wars and some of the work that we’ve collaborated on such as the TV show and the movie. We’ll also talk about the musical because that’s how we started our creative collaboration, with her helping solve a problem that I could not solve. So it’s always nice to have somebody much smarter and better looking. And probably a lot more articulate. So welcome to the show, Teresa Lin. 

Teresa Lin
Thank you. It’s nice to be here. It’s kind of interesting to be sitting across from you and having this spatial and auditory distance. It feels like our collaboration has always come from this inside space where we’re really deeply connected. 

FB
I’ll reach out and hold your hand if you get nervous. I can be intimidating to guests at times with very probing questions.

But it’s important that we start with your creative background. I mean, you can go back as far as you’d like. But I’m interested in the evolution from your time in Taiwan to the States to Duke to USC film school, to starting in the film and TV business to getting one of your first jobs as a professional writer on the TV show Bones.

Temperance "Bones" Brennan and Seeley Booth investigate a crime scene in the Fox TV series "Bones".

TL
One of the ways that I like to contextualize how I came to storytelling has always been this imaginative space, this expanse, that I filled because I had no access to television growing up in Taiwan and I was kind of a solo kid with both parents working. I was brought up really by the school teachers the school principal and myself. I was given a set of art supplies and some books and I was left to myself. So that expansive creativity, imagination, and filling in started there. I remember the very first film I saw, my grandmother took me to Snow White. What I remembered was the magic of cinema and also the model of what girls should grow up to be. Being in Taiwan it was the Chinese culture where girls were taught to be quiet and subservient. The quiet and small spaces that I had to fill I did with my imagination and stories. 

So when I came to Florida, my family bought into a motel where we worked and lived. That was my bird’s eye view into American culture. I was quite enamored with what America stood for and then quite startled by the reality of what it looked and felt like living in a motel next door to Baxter’s Lounge, which was a transvestite bar in a not-so-great part of Tampa. Again the discrepancy between what was imagined and what was sold to me, and what the reality gave me more fodder for creating stories. 

Then all the life experiences I had growing up with my parents giving me this cultural background of what it means to be Chinese and Taiwanese and keeping those ethics and then the idea of higher education being the number one driving force in my life and understanding that if I were educated, then that would be my ticket up in society. That gave me a tremendous work ethic and it landed me at Duke, and then at USC film school, but people are always surprised when I tell them that I didn’t really find cinema or was able to watch movies until I was in college. 

I remember the book that did it for me was The Godfather by Mario Puzo, and how much it drew me in and how this Italian culture of family was so similar it was to my culture. Then watching the movie, I had this totally internal and external experience of someone else’s interpretation of that book. I thought, “Oh, my God, this is a thing.” Ever since then, I was just driven by the idea of film and story. People say that films are immediate empathy machines. So when someone is watching it they’re breadcrumbed into the feeling and experience of these characters. For me, someone who’s come from the outside and really wants to be on the inside, language and storytelling were a way to draw people in.

FB
I’m curious about the differences you remember between the book and the experience with the movie and if you had any critique at the time. Or did they each stand on their own two feet and you just marveled that the story worked as a novel and worked as a film?

Amerigo Bonasera whispers in Vito Corleone's ear in a scene from the 1972 film "The Godfather".

TL
It was the sensation at times of deja vu because it was so similar to what I had imagined. Then, at times, it was really different because of casting, or I didn’t see or experience the character in such a tone. Nevertheless, it was a depiction of family and the tension between the characters, the family, and the conflict that was so prescriptive of what family hierarchy looked like. Because as a child, you felt the reverberation of the adults making the very important decisions. My family had gone through a lot of drama because of the motel and because of us being immigrants. There was a lot of misunderstanding between what we were feeling and the conflict that’s out there, and the fear of the unknown, and not knowing how to control it. 

Also, I was the first person in my family to really study English. My mom took some English classes where she worked, but I was the oldest of three daughters and I was the first one in my family to really get a grasp of English so I became sort of the translator. I was translating a lot of legal documents or I was running the front desk of this motel and talking to adults and negotiating prices. So it was me engaging with this adult world and trying to translate that to my parents.

FB
Were you a teenager or younger when you were doing this?

TL
I started around nine or 10. The importance of understanding and having a grasp of the language was paramount to the role that I played for my family. What I took away from that was if I could be understood, then people could be on my side, because understanding is a precursor to love and acceptance. So, for me, language was the key. Knowing how to tell a story well and contextualize it for the other person is the key to being understood.

FB
So story has been a big part of your life, but you were also thinking about becoming a lawyer. In law, there’s performance, there’s story, but there’s also interpretation and the ability to absorb a lot of information and then retell the story the way you want to present it.

TL
As with a lot of immigrant families, you understand that the sacrifices they made mean that you are either going to become a doctor or a lawyer, or something of the like. Translating legal documents was already part of my repertoire, I was on the debate team, and I was a member of the Association for Young Lawyers Club. 

But to your point, playing with words and digesting words, understanding how they will fit and how to contextualize someone’s subjective narrative, and understanding what the greater purpose is for writing something or for telling a story has always been a muscle that’s been well-honed in my life.

Alice sings with the flowers in a scene from the 1951 film "Alice in Wonderland".

FB
So we’ve been married for five months, but a couple for a decade, which has a nice ring to it. Why don’t you tell the audience about your first encounter with Alice in Wonderland?

TL
I would say that Alice in Wonderland came to me through Disney. I watched the Disney film when I was probably 11 or 12. It’s a little blonde girl who falls down a rabbit hole and has a lot of nonsensical events happen to her. It tickles everybody to think of, “What if I’m in this dream place where nothing seems to make sense?” 

It frees you from logic and it allows you to be playful. Though I remember it getting pretty dark with the Queen of Hearts. Then it just was resolved by it all being a dream. I don’t think I connected to Alice as much as I did to some other Disney characters because I think this idea of staying a child and not wanting to grow up was exactly the opposite of what I was conditioned to do.

FB
You finished high school early. You finished Duke early. You wanted to get into your adulthood, into your career, and what ultimately became writing for television.

TL
The path of writing for television showed itself down the road. But I was always fascinated by storytelling. I used to live in the library as a kid and I used to go into the research section and look up all the ways that fairy tales evolved from Europe and all the different origin stories coming from all different cultures and how they evolved and how they came into our consciousness. 

I was just fascinated with it. I’m not quite sure why but I was very interested because, as a child, a lot of the Chinese lore and mythology tales were told to us as cautionary tales. They were ways that our lessons came to us. If we, as kids, didn’t do the right thing, then these are the consequences. I needed to understand that. I was raised partly Buddhist, but also, these stories conveyed to us, “If you tell lies, something bad is going to happen to you. I think as a kid, or as a person, you want to examine what is the worst thing that can happen to you.

FB
For me, it’s the devil and hell.

TL
That’s right, being burned forever. But now looking at the larger lens of stories and Alice, I wanted to revisit that because I remember when I first met you, I was learning and reading about The Looking Glass Wars, and how you reimagined Alice. It was really inspiring because you were empowering a girl to become a warrior queen and, more importantly for me, it was somebody who had to look back and reconcile the history of her past, and not just her own past but her family’s past as well. That’s something I really recognized within my own history.

Princess Alyss stands in a stately ballroom in an illustration based on the novel, "The Looking Glass Wars".

FB
This is a motif that you’re deeply invested in, your past, and using it in storytelling.

TL
A lot of the impetus for my writing has to do with how we tell our stories and how it forms our identity. In order to move on we need to reconcile and contextualize our past, not just for ourselves, but for our ancestors. There are generational traumas that need to be reconciled for us to understand how to move on and pass that on to our daughters and sons. We as a species need stories to help us understand and give value and meaning to everything we’ve gone through outside of just our immediate emotional responses.

FB
We had been a couple for two or three years, and you had your focus on the things that you were doing and I had the things that I was working on, and, of course, we talked about The Looking Glass Wars, but we weren’t collaborating yet.

TL
I remember you diving back into developing the musical. 

FB
We went for a walk in Minnesota around Christmas Lake, where I grew up, and I was lamenting this problem with adapting The Looking Glass Wars into a musical and I was stuck. I was trying to shoehorn this novel that I’ve lived with for all these years into a musical. I had been inspired by Wicked and I really thought it could work. 

TL
You were having a hard time reconciling Alyss with two love interests.

A masked Princess Alyss meets Prince Leopold at a ball in a scene from the novel, "The Looking Glass Wars".

FB
They were separated and half of the show was with Prince Leopold and then half of it was back with Dodge and I said, “That’s never going to work and I don’t know how to fix it.” So we kept walking and you didn’t say anything for a little bit but then you just turned and went “I think if they’re the same character that would work.” If Prince Leopold is, in fact, also Dodge and Dodge is Prince Leopold so they’ll go back and forth between our world and Wonderland. I was in love with you before that, but that moment was, “Wow!” I think I grabbed your hand, “I’m not ever letting go.”

TL
I thought that moment happened when I hit that ball…

FB
That’s true. We went on a little vacation and I was teaching you how to putt on a golf course. It was about a 60-foot downhill-breaking putt and you sank it.

TL
I think that was the first moment. 

FB
That was the athletic moment because I live in two spaces. I live in the athletic space and I live in the creative space. So that was more of my past coming through. 

TL
That was really fun. I do remember the moment you’re talking about around Christmas Lake, when you looked at me with new eyes, “You and I can collaborate.”

FB
We talked about a lot of different musicals and you started writing the outline for what they call the book, which is the outline for the composer and the lyricist. Those are really tricky. 

TL
It was really fun because there’s another aspect of my childhood that Frank didn’t know about and working on this project with him allowed me to plumb into this past where I had music in my life. Growing up, we didn’t have a television but we had a piano and we always played and sang. So musicality was always a part of our family life so when I was invited in to work on this musical, I really had fun.

Glinda and Elphaba look off into the distance in a scene from the musical, "Wicked".

FB
You love to dance as well. You’re quite the dancer. But the tricky thing was sorting out the tone. We were looking at Les Miserables as an example, for a bit, and we were obviously also looking at Wicked. Moulin Rouge as well. 

TL
We were looking at these great, sweeping love stories because ultimately, it’s a big love story that drives it. But we also wanted to make it fresh. We wanted to look at examples of taking something that we all know, in popular culture, and taking a left turn with that project. It’s reimagining and reinventing something that feels familiar and giving it a twist. 

FB
Musically, you had a lot of various songs. You usually put a reference song or two for each scene. That was the roadmap of what we were thinking for future composers and lyricists. 

TL
Given the time and the space to do a deep dive, it flows. There’s so much material there to draw from.

FB
I think the aspect of being able to establish the reimagining of what happened with Lewis Carroll, but ultimately, having it be driven by this love story, and her coming back home and to her destined love.

TL
And her finding her sense of identity.

FB
That’s been really enjoyable. One of the challenges that we both have in terms of finding the entry point for The Looking Glass Wars, beyond the books and graphic novels, is what’s the right medium. What’s the timing and what’s the best story? Just in the same way that a movie has really limited parameters and time, for a musical you have 20 songs and you have to compress and condense. I’ve found that to be very difficult because maybe I’m too close to this source material but when we started talking about it as a TV show it started to show itself as a really exciting avenue.

An illustration of the evil Queen Redd from "The Looking Glass Wars" novels.

TL
I really enjoy watching stories now where the characters are tied together not through chronology or space and time but thematically. So the characters don’t necessarily have to be in the same space to share something really meaningful. I love the way that sometimes storylines cut across each other. Maybe there’s a pivotal scene or an emotional scene where the emotions connect the characters. So we’re really able to explore that in the TV show model because of the magic system and the emotionality that ties Hatter and Alice together, and also explores Queen Redd, and some of the reasons why she became Redd in her timeline as a teenager with her sister. I really want to ground it in the family story. 

I know the scope of the show is huge. There’s a whole Wonderverse out there that you’ve created over 20 years with so many nations, characters, and really cool concepts. But underneath it all, it’s a family story. For me, it’s the Hart family and what happened back in the day with Genevieve and Redd when things got out of balance and how their ability to wield imagination ripples out to the rest of the world. For Alice, it’s a redemption story for her family and it’s a redemption story for herself and in the decision of who she wants to be going forward.

FB
I’m really glad I married you. Bringing it full circle to your family, The Godfather, and The Looking Glass Wars, finding that strong theme of family and anchoring it in that is something that I would like to continue to explore with you in these podcasts. 

TL
I would love to come back and share our process. 

FB
It’s really nice to chat with you across the table and to expand our collaboration in this way.

TL
All right till next time. 

For the latest updates & news about All Things Alice,  please read our blog and subscribe to our podcast!

Walt Disney and Alice in Wonderland: The Long and Winding Road of Disney’s Passion Project

With CEO mudslinging, sagging box office returns for Marvel, and looming board battles, it can be easy to forget the Walt Disney Company is, at its core, a dream factory. The House of Mouse has produced movies, TV shows, theme park rides, and games that have inspired and entertained, forming core memories for its legions of fans. This assembly line of amusement originally stemmed from the dreams of one man – Walt Disney. And what inspired Disney? Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland.

“No story in English literature has intrigued me more. It fascinated me the first time I read it as a schoolboy.” Disney was fascinated by Lewis Carroll’s fantasy tale as a child growing up in Missouri and it’s easy to see how the novel influenced his later work. Disney’s films told fantastical stories in magical lands, infused with comedy and whimsy. Micky, Snow White, Pinnochio, and Cinderella captured the world’s imagination, just like Alice, the White Rabbit, the Mad Hatter, and the rest of Wonderland’s denizens did in 1865. But Disney wasn’t just content being inspired by Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, from his first forays into making movies, Disney was intent on bringing Alice to the big screen.

In 1923, Walt Disney was working at the wonderfully named Laugh-O-Gram Studios in Kansas City, Missouri. Laugh-O-Gram was not a runaway success, folding after two years and nine cartoons. But it was with Laugh-O-Gram that Disney made his first Alice film, a 12-minute silent short titled Alice’s Wonderland. The charming live-action/animation hybrid is loosely based on Lewis Carroll’s novel and follows Alice, a young girl who, after being inspired during a visit to an animation studio, dreams of traveling to an animated world filled with anthropomorphic animals. Alice is greeted at the train station and is the guest of honor in a parade around the animal realm. After escaping a pack of hungry lions, Alice leaps off a cliff and wakes up back in her bed, exhilarated by her fantastic dream.

Alice’s Wonderland didn’t save Laugh-O-Gram from bankruptcy but it did serve as the proof of concept for the Alice Comedies, a short series that chronicled the adventures of a live-action girl, Alice, and her animated cat Julius. Running from 1924 to 1927, the Alice Comedies were an important foundational piece for the nascent Walt Disney Corporation. It wasn’t until 1933 that the prospect of an Alice feature at Disney surfaced again, with the “Queen of the Movies” Mary Pickford in talks to face down the Red Queen as Alice. But the emergence of a competing live-action adaptation at Paramount scuppered the project and Disney contented himself with making Thru the Mirror, a short featuring the Mickey Mouse in a Through the Looking-glass parody.

The project that became the 1951 film Alice in Wonderland first started in the late 1930s after the tremendous success of a little film called Snow White. An initial story treatment was completed and Disney hired David Hall to create concept art for the feature. The results were…interesting. The art itself is beautiful, presaging the darker routes that future adaptations of Alice would take. But dark isn’t what Disney wanted for Alice. He was convinced that the film’s success would hinge on highlighting Carroll’s humor in the novel and ultimately rejected Hall’s work.

It was around this time that Disney’s enthusiasm for the project seemed to wane. “I don’t think there would be any harm in letting this thing sit for a while. Everyone is stale now,” he said. The prospect of Alice in Wonderlandgetting the Disneyland treatment became even more unlikely, with the underperformance of Pinnochio and Fantasia and the collapse of the foreign market due to World War II. Bank of America even prohibited the company from producing new feature films until they had fixed their finances.

Yet Disney didn’t give up. Come 1945, he was back in Wonderland, tapping famed Brave New World novelist Aldous Huxley to pen the screenplay for a live-action/animated hybrid production. While Disney found Huxley’s script too literal, he hadn’t lost his enthusiasm for the source material, telling American Weeklyin 1946, “Carroll was revolutionary in the field of literature. He violated the serious Victorian tradition by writing Alice in a vein of fantasy and nonsense. In fact, he was a pace-setter for the motion picture cartoon and the comic strip of today by the style he introduced in his fantasy.”

Disney decided to make the film fully animated and directed that the script focus more on the humor, joy, and whimsy of the novel. Mary Blair’s concept art introduced a modernist bent and her use of vivid colors and warped perspective captured the tone Disney desired. He also commissioned talented songwriters such as Sammy Fain and Bob Hilliard to compose music and songs for the film. The train was now truly on the tracks and Disney’s clarity of vision and eye for artistic talent came to the fore as Alice in Wonderland coalesced into a bright adventure with catchy songs and contagious comedy.

The production was massive by the standards of the time. The production of Alice in Wonderland took five years and the budget ran to $3 million (over $47 million in 2023), requiring Disney to ultimately utilize some of the profits from Cinderella to ensure the film reached his lofty standards. A full live-action feature was shot for reference during animation, a process that produced over 350,000 drawings and paintings by 750 artists. A 50-piece orchestra directed by Oliver Wallace (later nominated for an Oscar in recognition of his work) completed the score. And above it all, was the Missouri schoolboy who was finally about to turn his childhood dream into reality.

Alice’s road to becoming a revered classic, however, was to prove to be just as winding as her adventure in Wonderland. Reviews were not favorable upon the film’s release in 1951, with critics citing the divergence from the source material and a lack of heart and warmth. Audiences were similarly underwhelmed, resulting in a $600,000 shortfall at the box office. But, like Carroll’s book, Disney’s film proved to have considerable legs. Several re-releases encountered more receptive audiences, especially in the early 1970s when the studio connected the film to the recent prominence of psychedelia. Subsequent generations reevaluated Disney’s passion project and the film is now considered one of his company’s best. In the film, Alice remarks that “Curiosity often leads to trouble.” And while Walt Disney’s childhood curiosity regarding Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland did result in some stressful times, it also led to an indisputable animated classic.

Meet the Author

An itinerant storyteller, John Drain attended the University of Edinburgh before studying film at DePaul University in Chicago and later earned an MFA in Screenwriting from the American Film Institute Conservatory. John focuses on writing mysteries and thrillers featuring characters who are thrown into the deep end of the pool and struggle to just keep their heads above water. His work has been recognized by the Academy Nicholls Fellowship, the Austin Film Festival, ScreenCraft, Cinestory, and the Montreal Independent Film Festival. In a previous life, John created and produced theme park attractions across the globe for a wide variety of audiences. John keeps busy in his spare time with three Dungeons and Dragons campaigns and a seemingly never-ending stack of medieval history books.

Beyond Fantasy: Decoding Alice In Wonderland as a Feminist Manifesto

A classic illustration by John Tenniel of Alice bracing against flying playing cards as animals such as parrots, ducks, frogs, and rabbits scurry around her feet

In the annals of literature, Lewis Carroll’s “Alice in Wonderland” occupies a special realm. Beyond its apparent whimsy and fantasy, the tale of a young girl’s journey into a fantastical world carries profound reflections of the stages and struggles women have encountered throughout history. This reflection grows even more evident when we explore adaptations and references to Alice across diverse forms of media and popular culture.

In the Victorian era when societal norms tightly defined women’s roles, Carroll’s original Alice emerged as a beacon of curiosity and courage. Thrust into a world that defied her reality, Alice challenged expectations, questioned the absurdities of Wonderland, and asserted herself against constraints. This defiance could be interpreted as a representation of the awakening of women’s voices, as they began to question the societal confines and patriarchal systems that had long governed their lives.

A contemporary reimagining of Alice’s journey is found in Frank Beddor’s “The Looking Glass Wars” series. In this rendition, Wonderland transforms into a battleground, and Alice evolves into a warrior princess fighting not just for her place but her queendom. Here, Alice embodies the spirit of historical women who engaged in power struggles against oppressive systems. Echoes of Joan of Arc and suffragettes resonate as this version of Alice refuses to be sidelined, demanding her power and instigating transformative change.

A promotional still from American McGee's Alice, she holds a large bloody knife while wearing edgy make up and a blood splattered white apron over her classic blue dress.

American McGee’s “Alice” offers a darker perspective, portraying a twisted and decaying Wonderland that mirrors the historical pathologizing and silencing of women. As women were labeled “hysterical” and dismissed, Alice’s journey becomes a metaphor for reclaiming agency over her narrative and mental health. This echoes the modern feminist movement’s push to destigmatize discussions about women’s mental well-being and dismantle the silencing mechanisms that have persisted for centuries.

“The Last Mimzy” infuses elements of Wonderland as a stuffed rabbit bearing extraordinary powers affects the lives of two children. Symbolically, it reflects the potential of the feminine to bring about transformation. Throughout history, women have been both caregivers and catalysts for change, nurturing growth and evolution at familial and societal levels. This interpretation of Alice resonates with women’s roles in shaping the future and driving progress.

In the recent TV series “Alice in Borderland,” characters navigate a dystopian world of life-threatening games. While not a direct adaptation, the essence of Alice shines through as characters struggle to retain their identities in a hostile environment. This mirrors women’s historical fights for voting rights, workplace equality, and societal recognition. Their unwavering resilience, akin to the characters’ determination, highlights the lengths women go to surmount systemic challenges.

The poster for the film The Last Mimzy -- two children walk into a swirling bright blue light, the little girl holds a stuffed rabbit

The theme of transformation inherent in Alice’s journey underlines the various interpretations. It resonates with the struggles, challenges, and triumphs women have encountered through time. From the stifled Victorian woman to the trailblazers of the suffragette movement, from the marginalized ‘hysterical’ voices to the empowered voices of feminism, Alice’s odyssey mirrors them all.

Furthermore, the motif of “down the rabbit hole” encapsulates women breaking barriers, defying norms, and entering uncharted territories. Whether it’s breaking the glass ceiling, advocating for equal rights, or challenging societal conventions, the ‘rabbit hole’ embodies the profound, intricate journey women embark upon.

Like Alice, generations of women have embarked on journeys that defy expectations and challenge the status quo. The suffragettes of the early 20th century, for example, boldly demanded the right to vote, challenging deeply ingrained gender norms that relegated women to the domestic sphere. These women, like Alice, courageously ventured into unfamiliar and often dangerous territory, fighting for their voices to be heard in a world where they were often silenced.

A historical photograph of Marie Curie in black and white. Her hair is in a bun as she holds scientific instruments

In the world of science, Marie Curie made groundbreaking discoveries despite the prevailing gender biases of their time. A brilliant physicist and chemist, Curie developed the theory of radioactivity (a name she coined), discovered polonium and radium using methods she invented, and developed mobile X-ray units during World War I, saving countless lives. Marie Curie was the first woman to win a Nobel Prize, the first person to win two Nobel Prizes, and the only person to win a Nobel Prize in two different fields (Physics and Chemistry). Curie’s pioneering work not only expanded our understanding of the physical world but also shattered stereotypes about women’s intellectual capabilities. Alice’s exploration of Wonderland, as she delved into the mysterious and uncharted realms of science, is reminiscent in spirit of Marie Curie’s world-changing work in the previously unknown depths of science.

A black and white historical photograph of Amelia Earhart as she sits on the nose of her plane with the propeller in the foreground

In 1928, Amelia Earhart became the first woman to cross the Atlantic Ocean as a passenger and completed another landmark achievement when she became the first woman to complete a solo, nonstop transatlantic flight. Earhart immediately became a worldwide celebrity and was dubbed the “Queen of the Air” by the press. She helped to popularize the pursuit of aviation and was among the first people to campaign for commercial flights. She made several other record-setting flights and became a hero to millions and a feminist icon. A member of the National Women’s Party and supporter of the Equal Rights Amendment, Earhart was a tireless advocate for social change Earhart was not beholden to what others thought was possible or “proper” for women, serving as an inspiration for future generations. Earhart’s courage, imagination, and perseverance are qualities shared by Alice, who questioned authority and dared to take the road less traveled.

A black and white historical photograph of Rosa Parks as she sits on a bus looking out the window, a white gentleman sits in the seat row behind her.

During the civil rights movement, NAACP activist Rosa Parks defied racial segregation in the United States by refusing to give up her bus seat to a white passenger. Her courageous act served as an essential symbol of the broader civil rights movement and sparked the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which led in part to the end of bus segregation in the United States. Revered as an international icon, Parks received the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the Congressional Gold Medal, and has been honored by Congress as “the mother of the freedom movement.” Parks’ defiance challenged the oppressive norms of her time and her courage to stand up for what’s right continues to serve as an important example to all. While the context is quite different, Alice’s refusal to adhere to the Queen of Hearts’ unreasonable demands represents the conviction and bravery to stand up for one’s beliefs and to not back down in the face of seemingly overwhelming power.

These women, and countless others, embody the spirit of Alice as they ventured down their own rabbit holes, seeking to redefine boundaries and rewrite the rules. Their stories inspire us to challenge unfair limits imposed by society, to question unjust norms, and to forge ahead into uncharted territories.

“Alice in Wonderland” transcends its fantastical façade to mirror the stages of women’s history. Whether through explicit adaptations or subtle nods in modern media, Alice’s odyssey stands as a testament to the indomitable spirit of women—their struggles, victories, and ceaseless journey towards a brighter future. As we delve into these interpretations, Wonderland’s chaos and charm reveal themselves as a mirror to our world and women’s timeless voyage through its ever-evolving terrain. Just as Alice dared to venture through the looking glass, women throughout history have ventured beyond the confines of convention, carving a path toward equity and empowerment.

Battle of the IPs: Alice In Wonderland VS. The Lord of the Rings

Hey everyone, I’m back again with another Alice Versus blog. Tonight’s title card fight is a real heavyweight match. In the red corner, we have our reigning champion, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. In the blue corner, weighing in at a respectable whatever three books weigh, we have The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Tolkien vs. Carroll, high fantasy vs. absurdist satire, the Balrog vs. the Jabberwock. Two may enter but only one can be victorious. Let’s get right into it with our first section.

Sir John Tenniel illustration from Lewis Carroll's "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland"
Illustration of the Doors of Durin from J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings"

Global Cultural Impact:

In this first round of our showdown, we’re going to find out who’s had the most impact around the globe.

Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland (Lewis Carroll): When Lewis Carroll’s whimsical and surreal world of Wonderland was first introduced to the world, it was unlike anything people had ever read before. Its influence spans literature, film, art, and fashion. Wonderland’s timeless appeal transcends cultural boundaries, making it a cherished part of literary and artistic culture worldwide.

The Lord of the Rings (J.R.R. Tolkien): J.R.R. Tolkien’s epic high-fantasy masterpiece has garnered a global following that spans generations. Its influence extends to literature, film, and even the formation of entire subcultures. Tolkien’s world-building and rich mythology have left an indelible mark on the fantasy genre.

Winner: Both? – Here’s the thing, these books are both massive in terms of cultural impact. Both books are leaders in their respective genres, Alice in absurdism and LOTR in high fantasy. Trying to measure their impact is like trying to count sand, and I don’t want to count sand. So… It’s a tie.

The Balrog and Gandalf fight in a scene from "The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Rings"

Critical Acclaim – The Literary Realm:

In this category, we’ll explore the critical reception of the original works, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll and The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. After last round’s stalemate, I’m sure one of the two will take the lead here.

Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland (Lewis Carroll): Lewis Carroll’s surreal and satirical masterpiece has earned immense critical acclaim. Literary critics and scholars have celebrated it as a timeless work of imaginative storytelling and a profound exploration of Victorian society. It is widely recognized as a classic of children’s literature and has left an enduring mark on the literary world.

The Lord of the Rings (J.R.R. Tolkien): The trilogy has received unparalleled acclaim in the fantasy genre and beyond. Critics and scholars have hailed it for its intricate world-building, rich character development, and thematic depth. The work is often cited as a seminal piece of literature with enduring significance.

Winner: Both – Really? Another tie? I guess so, I mean, both books were critical successes in their own right so it’s hard to compare. I know it’s my job to compare them and I even tried to sway it in Alice’s favor but seriously this feels like another tie.

Orlando Bloom as Legolas in "The Lord of the Rings" film trilogy

Linguistic Influence:

Now, let’s delve into the linguistic impact of these fantastical worlds, including phrases and expressions they’ve introduced. I really need a winner here, ties don’t look good, that’s why soccer isn’t big in America.

Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland (Lewis Carroll): Lewis Carroll’s work introduced phrases like “down the rabbit hole” and “mad as a hatter” into common usage, adding whimsy and eccentricity to everyday language. Carroll’s linguistic creativity has even inspired new words, such as “chortle.”

The Lord of the Rings (J.R.R. Tolkien): J.R.R. Tolkien’s extensive language creation, including Elvish languages like Quenya and Sindarin, has captivated linguists and language enthusiasts worldwide. Phrases like “One Ring to rule them all” and “My precious” have become iconic.

Winner: Both – NO! Another tie? Aw man if this was a pay-per-view fight people would be pissed. Carroll’s work is still undefeated in the sense that it has become such a part of our everyday language that people don’t even think of the source material. Tolkien created TWO languages and even invented a few words outside of those languages, such as “Ent.” As much as I don’t want it to be, in my mind and my heart, I know this is a tie.

Alice looks down the rabbit hole in "Alice in Wonderland"

Books Sold:

Next, let’s examine the number of books sold for each work. I swear if this is a tie, I’m going to stop writing this.

Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland (Lewis Carroll): Lewis Carroll’s literary masterpiece has sold over 100 million copies worldwide, has been translated into more than 100 languages, and is available in over 300 editions.

The Lord of the Rings (J.R.R. Tolkien): J.R.R. Tolkien’s epic trilogy has sold over 150 million copies worldwide, making it one of the best-selling book series in history. It has been translated into numerous languages, captivating readers around the world.

Winner: Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland – Thank God. Okay, we finally have a winner here. In the category of books sold, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland secures its victory. 100 million for one book beats 50 million per book.

Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn in "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King"

Box Office Success:

Okay, now that we have a leader in this bout, I feel better about writing this. In this round, we compare the box office success of film adaptations of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and The Lord of the Rings.

Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland (Film Adaptations): Many film adaptations of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland have been successful at the box office, especially Tim Burton’s $1 billion behemoth, captivating audiences with their imaginative interpretations.

The Lord of the Rings (Film Adaptations): Peter Jackson’s film adaptations of The Lord of the Rings trilogy have grossed over $2.9 billion at the global box office, receiving critical acclaim and 17 Academy Awards, and becoming one of the most beloved and successful film series in cinematic history.

Winner: The Lord of the Rings – Aaaaaand we’re tied back up again… Damn. The Lord of the Rings film adaptations secure their victory, both in terms of earnings and critical acclaim. Back to square one…

Single cover for Jefferson Airplane's "White Rabbit"

Influence on Music:

Okay, it’s all tied up. This one is for all the marble. If it’s another tie I will never write again. No, no, don’t cry. It will be okay. I’m sure Frank’s other blog writers, if they work hard enough, one day, will display a similar (but slightly less than) amount of charm, wit, and attractiveness. I know you will all miss me but I just can’t have another tie here. Okay, with my preemptive goodbye, let’s explore how Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and The Lord of the Rings have influenced the world of music.

Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland (Lewis Carroll): Lewis Carroll’s whimsical and surreal world has inspired numerous songs, ranging from psychedelic rock to alternative music. Bands and artists have drawn inspiration from Wonderland’s fantastical elements and nonsensical whimsy, incorporating them into their lyrics and compositions.

The Lord of the Rings (J.R.R. Tolkien): J.R.R. Tolkien’s epic saga has had a profound impact on the realm of music. From progressive rock to folk metal, musicians have crafted songs and entire albums inspired by Middle-earth. Tolkien’s rich mythology and themes of heroism and adventure resonate deeply with musicians and their audiences.

Winner: Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland – I actually have my eyes closed in anticipation. I can’t look. Who’s the winner here? NO WAY! WE HAVE A WINNER. In the category of influence in music, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland emerges as the winner. While both works have inspired classic musical creations, the whimsical and surreal nature of Wonderland has been a particularly fertile ground for artistic expression in music.

Alice, the March Hare, and the Mad Hatter at the Mad Hatter's tea party in "Alice in Wonderland"

Conclusion:

In this captivating duel between Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and The Lord of the Rings, both works have demonstrated their profound impact on literature and popular culture. But as we all know there can be only one winner, unless it’s soccer, but thankfully this isn’t. The winner here, in a narrow victory, is Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland!

Wow, okay, normally, at the end of these Alice Versus blogs, I usually throw the losers a bone by giving their fans cool mashup images for them to take home with as a consolation prize. But, in this instance, since they were so evenly matched, I’ve decided that the mashups will be given out not as a consolation prize but as a symbol of joint friendship between two literary juggernauts.

First off, Gandalf went a tad mad and became a hatter…

An old wizard sitting at a table enjoying a beverage.

Next, Frodo and friends visit Wonderland and enjoy the Valley of Mushrooms. I wonder if they brought any Longbottom Leaf?

Hobbits sitting in a field of mushrooms.

Last, we have Hatter Madigan if he came to aid of Gondor for the Battle of Pelennor Fields. I wonder how he would’ve done against the Nazgul?

A dashing soldier in plate armor.

Alright, that was fun, let me know if you have any other mashups you want to see here. Hopefully, you enjoyed this blog. Let me know what you think below.

Meet the Author:

Jared Hoffman graduated from the American Film Institute with a degree in screenwriting. A Los Angeles native, his brand of comedy is satire stemming from the many different personalities and egos he has encountered throughout his life. As a lover of all things comedy, Jared is always working out new material and trying to make those around him laugh. His therapist claims this is a coping mechanism, but what does she know?

All Things Alice: Interview with Craig Hanks

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Craig Hanks join me as my guest on this episode! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.

Collage of "Alice Things Alice" podcast logo, "The Legendarium Podcast" logo, images of "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy, image of Craig Hanks.

Frank Beddor
I’m impressed with your podcast, The Legendarium, and I had a great time on the show. The theme we talked about was why stories last. You guys take such a deep dive into amazing novels and works of literature. You do podcasts about authors, whether it’s CS Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, or Robert Jordan. Then you have the Author’s Shelf series where authors come on and talk about the books that influence them. I’m interested in the imaginative moment where this all came together and you launched a podcast.

Craig Hanks
I’ve been going at this for a long time. I first started podcasting back in 2009 when I was working at the campus radio station where I went to school. I was one of those weirdo kids who, instead of turning on the TV, would turn on the oldies or the classic rock station because I loved the DJs. The music was amazing too but I loved hearing the DJs and fantasizing about being the guy with the microphone. Then I finally got a job in radio and went, “Oh, okay, there’s no money in this. What else could I do?” So I started podcasting on the side while I was still in school but nothing really took off for a few years. It wasn’t until we started The Legendarium back in 2014, that that thing started to crystallize. I had moved back to my hometown and rekindled my friendship with my best friend from elementary school.

We were brainstorming ideas and I said “I’d love to do something about fantasy and science fiction. A kind of a book club type of thing. Maybe we’d start with The Lord of the Rings.” He goes, “I’ve never read it.” Well, that settled that. So we did a deep dive, 17 episodes, on The Lord of the Rings. It’s the expert guy walking the first-timer through it. So we had an interesting dynamic there and then we started branching out. We read Brandon Sanderson and Robert Jordan and started getting into classic sci-fi, like Starship Troopers.

The Fellowship, Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas, Boromir, Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pippin, and Gimli in "The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring"

CH
It’s all self-taught. When I was 15, I went and saw The Fellowship of the Ring with my family. I’d never seen it before. I’ve never read the books or anything. It was, as C.S. Lewis calls Lord of the Rings, a bolt from the blue from the clear sky. This was one of the few times in my life where, at that actual moment, I could feel that everything about my life had just changed. The screen goes black and Cate Blanchett says, “The world has changed.” I’m like, “Alright, that’s it. I’m done. My life as I knew it was over. This is the greatest thing I’ve ever experienced.” From there, I bought the books and I did the teenage fan thing for a while, “How dare the movies make this change?”

FB
Even though you saw the movie first and you went back and read the books, then you started to critique the movie? Only a teenager can do that.

CH
Some people, unfortunately, never seem to grow out of it. But I was 16 or 17 when my mom bought me a copy of The Silmarillion. Anybody who’s read The Silmarillion knows that is the true refiner’s fire for Tolkien fans. But again, I got to the last page and said, “My life will never be the same.” Then I started reading secondary stuff like Tom Shippey, the scholarly essays and works about The Lord of the Rings. I’ve been doing that for, gosh, 20 years now.

FB
I want to go back to between 2009 and 2014. I even noticed with the 20 episodes I’ve done, that I needed to refine this. I need to think about this more critically. I’m curious, from 2009 to 2014, before you landed on The Legendarium, what were some of the ideas that didn’t work?

CH
The first show I ever did was actually with my wife. We were still in college and I was still at the radio station, where I was working as a producer. I was constructing episodes for this host to do something similar to what we’re doing now. I would do all this research, feed him questions, and make him sound smart. It was a great job. I loved it. So I took it home, and asked my wife, “Hey, do you want to do a podcast with me? I don’t know about me just talking into a mic. That sounds a little bit, you know, crazy.” It was a weekly podcast called The Weeklings. We had several recurring segments throughout the show. We had the story of the week, the Wiki of the week where we’d pull a random Wikipedia article. We did 15 or so episodes before she couldn’t take it anymore. She did not like the back-and-forth confrontations and arguments that we’d have about this, and it stressed her out.

I’m pretty sure we had like 25 listeners and most of those were family. When I had the idea to start podcasting, I went to the campus library and, I kid you not, I picked up a copy of Podcasting for Dummies. It was beautiful. It walked me through the entire thing. Now there are a million resources online that’ll take you through all the same kind of stuff. But it was perfect back in 2009 to get me set up, buy the equipment, and get on there.

FB
I’m really impressed with that. Because in 2009, it was way ahead of the curve. I went to a John Mulaney show recently at the Hollywood Bowl and at one point he looked out at all these people and said, “Oh, no, I know you all have a podcast. I’m not gonna listen to it.” I went, “Oh, man, I just started. I just had my second day and John Mulaney is making a joke about it.”

CH
Having a podcast used to be something people found interesting. When we started The Legendarium in 2014 the reaction was, “Oh, you have a podcast? Tell me more.” And now it’s like, “Oh, you have a podcast.” I didn’t know this until recently but somebody told me that on dating apps, if you say that you have a podcast, it’s a huge red flag.

FB
How did you guys break out and establish yourself? One of the ways is by doing other people’s podcasts, but there probably weren’t that many podcasts when you started.

Science fiction/fantasy writer Brandon Sanderson standing in front of full bookshelves.

CH
Exactly. I don’t think I guested it on a podcast until three or four years later. It was a while. When we started it was mostly little rinky dink operations like us or NPR putting out huge shows. When we moved on from our Tolkien series we had a couple hundred listeners. It was still pretty small. But when we moved on to Brandon Sanderson, we reached a whole new audience.

I’d been reading him for a long time so we started doing podcast episodes on his work. And I said, “You know what, nobody’s listening to this because nobody knows it exists.” So I did the shameless self-promotion thing and got on Reddit, and told all the Brandon Sanderson fans. That is what blew it up. People were starved for content like this. They loved it. They loved having discussions on Reddit but now you could have somebody’s voice in your ear, or several people talking about the things you loved. We had four people on the panel and it gives you that feeling of sitting in the living room with your buddies and they’re talking about your favorite book.

FB
Were you always focused on such deep dives? The other thing that’s unique in terms of what you guys talk about is the rereading of these books. Sometimes you guys reread these books four or five times, which seems insane to me. How do you have the time?

CH
Frank, we’re dorks, okay? We’re dorks. We’ve accepted it and it’s time for you to accept it too.

FB
In terms of when you’re breaking down a story or a series or an author, were you getting feedback from listeners that let you expand your understanding of what was working with your podcast?

CH
It’s a great question and something that I stumbled into early on in those Reddit threads. It’s a little tacky to go on and just say, “Here’s a podcast, listen to it.” Even at the time, that was a little too self-promotional. So what I would do is say, “Hey, we’re going to record a podcast about x book. What are your observations? Questions? What do you want us to talk about as we have this discussion?” So people would get engaged before the show came out. Then we put it out and they get to hear us ask their question. They get a thrill from that. And we still carry this through today but I think that was one of the things that helped build that core audience. When you do it right it’s not a gimmick. We weren’t doing it for self-promotion. It makes for much better conversations and much better episodes when you’re engaging with the audience.

That would help us with individual episodes but also it got people used to the idea that these are guys who will actually respond and so listeners would suggest books for us. For the most part, it wasn’t a popularity contest. We weren’t tallying up votes for certain books or authors. It was more, “I’ve heard that name come up so many times that I think we need to put it on our list and we’ll get to it at some point.” We’ve never chased the next big thing. Going back to your earlier question about rereading, generally speaking, there are two different types of readers – those who love to read widely and those who love to read deeply. I’ve always been a deeper reader. In fact, 450 episodes and dozens of authors are way too wide. For me, I would much rather just stick with one or two authors and really get into it for 500 episodes. That’s my wheelhouse. But everybody has their own flavor of how they consume.

Triptych of Brandon Sanderson novels including "Mistborn," "The Well of Ascension," and "The Hero of Ages"

FB
Did Brandon Sanderson come on your show eventually?

CH
I’ve gotten to know Brandon Sanderson a little bit. I’m a beta reader for him now, which is a lot of fun. But anyway, he was our first Author’s Shelf episode. That’s where an author pulls something off their shelf that’s not theirs. I got this idea because I was at a signing of his and I was asking for his help doing a little audio hit. I just wanted him to say into an audio recorder like, “Hi, this is Brandon Sanderson. Welcome to The Legendarium.” That’s all I wanted.

So, I asked his assistant, “Can I get him to do this?” And the assistant said, “Yeah, he’ll do it. But you have to wait till the end of the signing.” So as I stood there waiting, I was listening to the conversations he was having and I noticed that he had maybe 10-12 individual questions the whole time. He just got them dozens of times each. He was such a pro and he answered everybody with the same level of enthusiasm but I also had the thought, “If I ever had him on my show, I don’t think I’d have anything interesting to ask him.” He’s heard it all. He’s had these questions 1,000 times.

So when I finally got him in front of the recorder and got the little audio hit, I said, “Hey, Brandon, we’d love to have you on the show.” And he got that look on his face, “Oh, no. How do I say no? I don’t want to do some chump’s podcast.” But I said, “I’d love to have you on the show but I want to have you on to talk about something that’s not your work.” And he goes, “Oh, tell me more.” I knew he was a Terry Pratchett fan and I said that we’d love to have him talk Pratchett. So that’s where the Author’s Shelf started. I was just trying to find a different way to talk to authors and get to know them. We’ve all read the books and we all know their biographies. But how do they think about other books?

FB
What was the first book that your parents gave you that inspired you? I have two young kids and we went to a comic book shop one time and my son was engrossed in this Star Wars comic. At one point I said, “We have to go,” and he didn’t look up. That was the moment he discovered story and reading. I think he might have been six or seven so I’m curious if you have a similar memory.

CH
I have two kids as well and I have a love-hate relationship with the Dave Pilkey books, Captain Underpants and Dog Man. I do not like reading them with my kids but I love that they love reading them. Anyway, when I was that age, six, seven, eight, I read all the Goosebumps books and the Hardy Boys stuff. That was great fun. Encyclopedia Brown holds a special place in my heart. But then very shortly after I turned nine, my mom came to me. I still can’t believe she did this and handed me Sphere by Michael Crichton. So I read Sphere and loved it and then I got a copy from her of The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks.

Cover of Michael Crichton's novel "Sphere"
Cover of Terry Brooks' novel "The Sword of Shannara"

FB
But she was feeding you all sorts of different things.

CH
Those were the only two that my parents ever actually gave me telling me, “Here, you need to read this.” But what they did was they filled their bookshelves with all sorts of interesting-looking spines. Which is the great thing about sci-fi and fantasy. Love them or hate them, the covers are interesting.

FB
Boy, did I find out how important that is?

CH
With yours? Tell me more.

FB
At Comic Cons, there are so many distractions for people and a piece of artwork can get a kid’s attention. I could see them coming, beelining right towards me. It’s gotta be that card soldier right up there. And they go, “What are those things? What are those, knights?” It became abundantly clear why having great art and great covers are important and fantasy and sci-fi do it better than anybody,

CH
The titles as well. This is why authors don’t always get to choose their titles. Just like somebody who writes online, it’s often the editor who chooses the title. When I was 14, my friend tried to hand me a copy of The Lord of the Rings. I hated the cover. I hated the title. I’m not touching that. You keep your stupid book.

FB
Little did you know. So what motivated you to finally read it?

CH
It was that first peek at Peter Jackson’s trilogy.

FB
Did you put those two things together and remember that book?

CH
Yep. I don’t know why that particular story stuck in my head, maybe because I was being kind of a jerk to my friend. But when I was a little younger, 12 or 13, I read The Hobbit for a book report in school. I enjoyed it but I had no idea that this guy had written anything else. And so yeah, sure, I read this thing about a hobbit. So when I was watching The Fellowship of the Ring in theaters and Bilbo finds the ring in the prologue, I was so confused because I’ve seen this before. It was killing me. It took me four or five minutes before it finally clicked into place.

Bilbo Baggins finding the One Ring in "The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring"

FB
That was one of the kind of great openings for a movie in terms of laying out the story and the backstory and the narration and the battles and they did it with so much grace and economy and then you land right in a character, but you have context. I remember that opening really well and being blown away.

CH
It’s under-appreciated that when you come to a story, it matters. It matters as much as who you are and what it is. And not just at what age, but what day. How excited are you? How depressed?

FB
Well, it certainly was true for me with Alice in Wonderland, because I came to Alice when I was 10. My grandmother’s name was Alice. It was my mother’s favorite book. And they handed this book to me and I looked at the cover and said “There’s no way. Come on, mom. She has a blue dress and she goes down a rabbit hole? This is going to be terrible.” And of course, I hated it. So I told her later in life that when I started writing The Looking Glass Wars, this was my revenge for her forcing me to read the original book. It wasn’t until college that I reread Alice and that I really, really appreciated it and found my way into the world,

So our lives with these two different books are somewhat parallel. I wish there had been a good Alice in Wonderland movie. The Lord of the Rings is the gold standard for the reluctant hero story, the quest story, and Alice is on a bit of a quest, but it’s also random and episodic and, so unlike Lord of the Rings, you know, it was a struggle to find a structure to tell that story, certainly as a movie, except for Disney’s version and, of course, Tim Burton found his way and he brought his fantastical vision to it. But The Lord of the Rings really defined the reluctant hero story.

CH
It’s defined a lot about modern fantasy. But some people do have a tendency, especially when they’re younger, to think that fantasy started with Tolkien in 1938. It didn’t. Fantasy was going on for a long time. It just had a different form. It wasn’t structured the same way. So you had people like L. Frank Baum or George MacDonald writing fantastical things. It just had a different flavor and a different purpose.

FB
And Lewis Carroll. Wonderland has now been defined as a magical place. There’s Winter Wonderland and Middle Earth is also equally recognizable as a fantasy realm that in some ways can feel very real and is often referenced in culture these days, which I find really interesting.  But I’m a big L. Frank Baum fan because I think all authors named Frank are excellent.

CH
Something that Tolkien did usher in, as far as what he gave the fantasy genre, there are many things, but one of them is a grounding in reality. When you’re reading Alice in Wonderland and you fall down that rabbit hole, or when you go to the magical land of Oz, all bets are off. You have no idea what’s up or down, left or right. Everything is kind of randomized, almost. It’s a fever dream. Whereas when you get to Tolkien, he bases Middle-earth on some imagined pre-history of our world. So when I lived for a couple of years in northern France, I was amid these rolling hills with the corn and these yellow flowers and green hills. I am in the Shire. I am right there. It is exactly as he described it. It’s that kind of grounding that you then have with Westeros. He’s basing it on the Wars of the Roses and this idea of the British Isles and what’s across the sea and these strange peoples that you come in contact with. It’s grounded in reality. Then, if we go back to Terry Brooks, he did a post-apocalyptic fantasy where it’s our world, but it’s what happens 1000s of years after the nuclear winter. It’s something that Tolkien did usher in, making it our world but fantastical.

Valley Of Mushrooms

FB
That trope has been so successful. I was certainly inspired when writing my books to find a way to ground Wonderland and bring rules, logic, and history to the elements of visual aspects that people were familiar with. So the Valley of Mushrooms becomes a real place, a destination, and there are rules. The more I was able to ground the story in something that felt real for people, the more they could suspend disbelief and go on the ride. Then I expanded it again, using maps and other territories that were never part of Lewis Carroll’s original work. So having those worlds as potential settings or just referencing them gave the story a broader context and different mythologies to play off of. Falling down a rabbit hole, and having a portal is a trope from C.S. Lewis, but the palace intrigue is a trope and a genre that works if you can find yourself grounded in the rules and the logic. I love that about Tolkine’s books. He just went so deep and spent so much time crafting his world.

CH
He was a special creature in the way his mind worked. But also, he was writing The Lord of the Rings for 15-17 years. It took him a long time to just write the book. It took him his whole life to construct the mythology around it.

FB
I’m always interested in people’s experiences with their parents and how their parents influenced and shaped them. When you have this much love for literature, pop culture, and movies, finding a way to make a career out of that is really unusual and not often encouraged in society. How did you navigate that? What did your folks have to say, or anybody else? Was there a mentor who might have influenced you?

CH
I will say, as delighted as I am with a decade of relative success with The Legendarium, this is not my full-time job. This is still largely a labor of love. But going back to your actual question, as far as my parents, I had a couple of advantages in that regard. Number one, they were accepting of whatever path we might want to take. That was never really a question. There was never a “Hey, you should go into pre-law.” Nobody ever said that to me in my house. So that was advantage number one. Then advantage number two is that I’m a middle child. I’ve got two older brothers and a younger sister, and all the middle children out there will know that you get largely forgotten in the mix. This is the middle child thing. I didn’t have that push that I think some kids might have had of, “You need to do this. I’m going to help you direct your life.” I just never had that. I’m sure a therapist out there would have a lot to say about this but as far as this conversation goes, it was quite an advantage. Because it let me cultivate just the stuff that I loved and not only what I thought I had to do.

FB
I wanted to ask, why no Alice in Wonderland on your podcast?

CH
It’s one of those things that, should we do it? Yeah, absolutely. Will we do it? Yeah, probably one day. It’s just that the “to be read” pile grows apace. It’s tough. We have to balance what’s new and interesting with what we want to read regardless of when they came out.

FB
Have you read Alice before?

CH
I was so young that I can’t remember. I think I read it when I was 12. It’s one of those things where you have flashes in images. Kind of like my remembering who Gollum was, “Wait a minute, I’ve seen this somewhere.” That’s what I have with Alice.

FB
Since I’ve been working in the Alice world it’s kind of like you buy a Prius and suddenly you look around and everybody has a Prius. It’s like, “I can’t believe how many Priuses are here.” Alice seems to be everywhere in pop culture because I’m focused on it. In the last political cycle, you heard down the rabbit hole countless times. Then after our podcast, I was thinking about Lord of the Rings and how you have the books and the movies and the video games but there are also so many excellent games, the television show, and there are a lot of musicians that have been inspired by Tolkien, like Led Zeppelin, which was my childhood favorite. From your perspective, how much influence is there of The Lord of the Rings in culture today and why does it last? Why do those themes seem to be resonating now more than ever?

Rock n' roll group Led Zeppelin, including John Bonham, Robert Plant, Jimmy Page, and John Paul Jones

CH
As far as what we see around us, The Lord of the Rings has become, especially after the movies, the water we swim in but we don’t know we’re wet. So we see stuff and maybe it’s so familiar that we may or may not remark on it. There’s the old trope of the wayfaring traveler stopping by an inn. You have the Ringwraiths, one of Tolkien’s most original contributions to the genre, this idea of the twisted evil that used to be human and now serves the Dark One. This is a super common storytelling device now. I’m trying to think if there are things about it that we use daily like the phrase “down the rabbit hole”. I’m not entirely sure that we have that style of thing with The Lord of the Rings.

FB
Is the line, “My precious,” from the book or the movie?

CH
It’s from both but when Andy Serkis is saying it, it does something a little different. It gives you that living meme in your head.

FB
I think “one ring” too but not to the level of “down the rabbit hole.” “Down the rabbit hole” is the reason Alice in Wonderland is the second most quoted book in the world.

CH
You can read those huge lists of words and phrases that we still use from Shakespeare. I don’t think we do that with The Lord of the Rings. Although, everybody knows what a hobbit is. If you were to list magical creatures, you have elves and dwarves and ogres and orcs and hobbits. Tolkien invented hobbits out of whole cloth. I was actually just playing one of The New York Times word games and hobbit was one of the answers. I was like, “No way. Great!” So that’s in the dictionary now. We might have a little thing here and there.

FB
But I think the grand quest and the themes of resilience and friendship and good and evil, it feels like so much of that started with The Lord of the Rings.

CH
I think you might be right, as far as pop culture goes. But one of the wonderful things about Tolkien is that he never regarded his books and his world as an endpoint. They’re jumping off points. If anybody’s interested in reading a Tolkien short story, it’s about 20 pages long and it will change your life. It’s called “Leaf by Niggle”. Niggle is a reflection of Tolkien himself and it’s a story of meditation on death and life and what happens in the afterlife. The whole idea behind this story was that the painting that Niggle was creating, which mirrored Tolkien’s story, his mythology, comes to life in purgatory, and it’s his job to bring it to life and it becomes a waystation for other souls on their way from life into the afterlife. That’s how I think, at least at that point in his life, he viewed what he was building. When I say that what I mean is, he never wanted you to get lost in Middle-earth. He wanted you to use it to be inspired to go back to the real world and think about things differently. So when a reader comes to The Lord of the Rings with a certain type of mindset and a certain thirst for knowledge, you get out of Middle-earth and go, “Where did that come from?” And if you just scratched the surface a little you’d see that you should read Beowulf, the Icelandic Eddas, the Kalevala from Finland, and German fairy tales. It sends you, if you’ll excuse me, down a rabbit hole. It sends you off on an adventure to all these other things that are part of our world.

My favorite secondary writer on Middle-earth is Tom Shippey. He wrote J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century and The Road to Middle-Earth, these kinds of intellectual treatises on Middle-earth and Tolkien. What I appreciated about that was that he gave endnotes, he gave suggestions on what to read next. He’s somebody who can crystallize ideas. Like, where did this reluctant hero come from? Tolkien didn’t invent that. Where did the idea of courage in our stories come from? He didn’t invent that, he just gave it to us and said, “If you want to learn more about this, I base the Rohirrim on the Anglo-Saxons, the old English, go read Beowulf.”

Karl Urban as Eomer in "The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers" atop a horse, wearing armor, and holding a spear

FB 
It’s the handing down of stories, which I think is so important. I’m getting a little bit lost with what we have in social media. I was listening to somebody talk about social media and he had a graph that showed every month of your life from 18 to 90 and he showed that if you stay on social media, this is how much time you would have wasted on social media. But then more importantly, he goes back to the difference between social media being a 15-second interaction as opposed to when books were the main form of entertainment, you had to focus and you would sink into a world and go on an adventure. You’d have to absorb so much of the world to get enjoyment from it. I fear that we’ve lost some of that. So hearing what you’re talking about in terms of these books being a waystation is a great way of conceptualizing that experience of finding other stories and other authors.

CH
One of the most wonderful and infuriating things about the internet is that it’s simultaneously forever and utterly fleeting. So, when I’m finally done with The Legendarium, I’ll take all of the audio files, put them on a thumb drive, and save them for posterity. Then, in the future, people will look at the thumb drive and go, “How the heck am I supposed to read this?” But I have no such grand ambitions. I do love the idea of helping other people love the books that they love. There’s something about sharing those books with others, whether I’m the one talking into the microphone with my friends in the studio or if you’re the one listening on your headphones, there’s something about experiencing it with other people and hearing other perspectives that can really solidify what you love.

FB
There are so many great books. I’ve encountered so many over the years at Comic Cons. You must know this, but they have a great one in Salt Lake City. I used to think it was just for comic books but they love all things to do with pop culture, particularly novels.

I remember when I first started going to cons, I was telling Penguin, my publisher, “I sell more novels at Comic Cons than comic books. You guys should have a booth here. You guys should be promoting your authors at Comic-Con.” And they took my advice.

CH
It’s remarkable. When you go down Artist Alley at a Comic Con you see there is often a lot of fan art based on their favorite books and it sells like freakin’ hotcakes.

FB
It’s terrific. Tell me about the book you’re covering on your latest podcast.

Cover of Matthew Woodring Stover's novel "Heroes Die"
Matthew Woodring Stover

CH
It’s The Acts of Caine series by Matthew Stover. The first book is called Heroes Die. I urge everyone listening to Google Heroes Die and check out the cover. It is, without a doubt, the worst cover I have ever seen in my life. The mid to late-90s was the nadir of fantasy cover art and this one takes the cake. But it is a remarkable book. The Acts of Caine is a four-book series and each one varies in length. He uses a different tone and style in each one. He has different themes that he tries to capture within each book. They’re wildly different, unlike most of the series that we tend to read and love. It’s like listening to an album by Beck. You never know what the next track is gonna bring you. So the book is Heroes Die and the series is called The Acts of Cain. The first episode is out so people can go check that out. I highly, highly recommend it. I’m actually doing this in conjunction with the Inking Out Loud podcast. The host, Drew McCaffrey, and I are going to be swapping back and forth, doing one episode on mine, the next on his, and vice versa.

FB 
That’s a cool idea. What’s the emphasis of his podcast?

CH
He does a similar thing to what we do on The Legendarium. It’s a book club-style podcast. He’s a writer himself as yet unpublished but it’s only a matter of time. He’s very good. So he comes at it from a writerly perspective. Whereas I tend to come at it from, shall we call it, a readerly perspective.

FB
Have you thought about writing?

CH
It is something that I’ve considered for sure. I have a few ideas bouncing around in my head. But I am not sure if I have the discipline to carry it through. I admire people like you who can even finish a book, let alone get it published and get thousands and millions of people to read it. But it’s something that I’ve thought about a lot over the years because I’ve got this question a lot, “Hey, you talk about books all day. Why don’t you write one?” So maybe I should, at some point. But also, I think while writing is a talent that can be cultivated, so is reading. And right now I am happy to continue cultivating that talent and trying to get better at it.

FB
To be able to break down those stories and share them as you do in the podcast is definitely a talent. I remember listening to some of your podcasts before I came on and I thought it was really intimidating. I do not want to get into a deep discussion about some of these books because that is not how I process my creativity. I have to go deep into my world and then hope that these influences show up. But I can’t be thinking about other books or other writers. I have to think, “Is this a nice sentence? Is this a decent paragraph? Does this make for a good end to the chapter?” I was listening to you dissect some of these novels, it was really impressive. I really encourage people to listen to your podcast. It’s tons of fun. Obviously, you’ve done it 450 times so you know what you’re doing and you have a great radio voice as well.

CH
I appreciate that. When I got hired at the radio station at 21 or 22, I was told that I would never be on the air and that my voice was terrible.

FB
Yes, I love that. Because it speaks to that thing about being rejected and failing and then finding your way and how satisfying it is to overcome that rejection and find something you love.

CH
The thing I love about The Legendarium and the reason why I keep doing it, there are a lot of reasons but this is one of the big ones, is it opens doors. It lets me meet people like you. It sends me to this or that convention. It provides opportunities. At the beginning of the show I had been working in a bank for four years and I got to talking to one of my customers. I invited her on the podcast and that’s how I got a job in marketing and how I ended up doing other podcast projects and YouTube channels. If you do what you love, it may not make you rich, but it can open doors and lead you to meet people.

FB
I really love that story. It is following your passion and trusting that those doors will open and doing the work. It’s been a real pleasure and thank you for sharing your love of all things Tolkien. I look forward to maybe catching you at a Comic Con in the future.

CH
Oh, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Frank.

For the latest updates & news about All Things Alice,  please read our blog and subscribe to our podcast!

6 Stylish Alice In Wonderland-Inspired Jewelry Pieces

Imagine stepping into the Red Queen’s opulent palace, overflowing with diamonds, rubies, and emeralds. Wouldn’t you just want to take a couple and set them into a ring or necklace? Luckily, there are plenty of talented jewelers who have brought Wonderland to our world with captivating designs and shimmering stones.

The lavish and sensational world of Wonderland provides the perfect source material for fashionable and eye-catching jewelry designs. Whether it’s a diamond-encrusted Cheshire Cat or a beautiful Alice-themed tiara, the inspirations for Alice jewelry are endless. However, those two items, while amazing, aren’t very practical unless you have a Queen’s bank account and frequently attend coronations.

But we’ve got you covered. Here are seven stylish pieces you can wear any time and won’t have to leverage a queendom to afford. Let’s venture down this (sparkly) rabbit hole and get a look at the best Alice in Wonderland-inspired jewelry.

Alice in Wonderland Cheshire Cat Amethyst and Diamond Ring

A jewel encrusted ring modeled on the iconic purple striped tail of the Cheshire Cat.

This beautiful Alice in Wonderland Cheshire Cat Diamond ring from KAY Jewelers captures the serene and enigmatic nature of the Cheshire Cat. Coming straight out of the Disney Treasures collection, this ring features round-cut diamonds which form the foundation of the piece’s design. The highlight is the representation of the iconic Cheshire Cat’s tail, made of purple amethysts in a black rhodium finish with alternating bands of 10K rose gold to create the cat’s vivid stripes. The Red Queen would certainly want this in her collection.

This ring takes cues from the Cheshire Cat’s look and color scheme but doesn’t overdo it. There is no face-like design screaming its Alice origins or vertically cut diamonds to convey the Cheshire Cat’s mischievous smile. Subtly is the core of the art of jewelry making and this design excels at it.

The Looking Glass Wars Emblem Necklace

A teardrop pendant sporting the Suit Family Logo from Frank Beddor's The Looking Glass Wars.

Long Live Alyss! Or maybe you’re more of an “Off with her head!” type of person. Regardless of your allegiances in the War for Wonderland, our Looking Glass WarsEmblem Necklace is the perfect way to show your support for the Wonderverse. Take Wonderland with you everywhere you go with this simple, sleek, and stylish piece.

This necklace comes in three equally timeless designs – gold logo on a white background, gold logo on a black background, and the red, blue, and black “U.K.” edition logo on a white background. The classic chain is punctuated by a series of silver disks for added flair while the regal teardrop pendant is a fitting base for the Royal Suit Family insignia. 

Alice Friendship Day Necklace

Fandom and friendships. Two intensely personal and joyful elements of life. If you and a friend’s relationship overlaps with your mutual love for Alice in Wonderland, then the Alice in Wonderland Friendship Day necklace is the perfect piece for both of you.

Charm necklaces with tiny silver bottles that read "eat me" and "drink me" small mushroom and key charms hang next to the bottles

Carry a constant reminder of the most important things in your life with this unique necklace, which is both elegant and playful. It features two charms – the “Eat Me” bottle and a mushroom on one, and the “Drink Me” bottle with a key on the other. Good friendships are life-changing experiences that fundamentally alter how we see the world. The Eat Me/Drink Me designs are perfect symbols of that dynamic, referencing Alice’s first moments in Wonderland as she learns that her conception of the world will be forever changed.

This necklace doesn’t only look amazing, there is beauty in how it’s built. The chain and charms are made from alloy, making for a durable piece of jewelry that is friendly both to the environment as well as the most sensitive skin. A great gift for friends or the Alice fanatics in your life, this friendship necklace gives everyone the option to have a personal slice of Wonderland.

Alice in Wonderland Earrings

Alice and the White Rabbit are back together again in these stunning Alice in Wonderland Gold Earrings from Etsy seller One in a Buzzillion. These handmade gold hoop earrings make for a beautiful addition to your jewelry collection and feature a minimalist aesthetic so you never have to worry about overdoing it with these as part of your look. 

Colorful dangle earrings featuring Alice and the White Rabbit amid the suit symbols arranged like a clock

The clock motif is a perfect use of the hoop structure with the White Rabbit and Alice rendered in a classic, elegant manner. They’re both the stars of the show and part of the ensemble at the same time. You can get them as a set or go for two Rabbits or two Alices if you’re into a more symmetrical look. Furthermore, these earrings are nickel-free, so they’re perfect for those with sensitive skin.

Alice in Wonderland Charm Bracelet

Dive down the rabbit hole into the world of Alice-inspired jewelry and wear Wonderland with this perfect piece. This Alice in Wonderland Charm bracelet is a piece of art that features just about everything you can remember from Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. From the Cheshire Cat to the pocket watch to the Mad Hatter, all of Wonderland is on display with this charm bracelet.

Charm bracelet featuring the white rabbit and flamingos and tea pots and other wonderland icons

The chain is silver-plated and nickel-free with charms incorporating blue and clear crystal beads. This hand-crafted piece of Wonderland from Etsy artist IndigoChildDesigned is a must-buy for anyone who claims to be a fan of Alice in Wonderland.

Alice in Wonderland Pocket Watch Necklace

Never be late for an important date again with this Alice in Wonderland Pocket Watch Necklace. Of all the objects in Alice in Wonderland, the White Rabbit’s pocket watch is one of the most iconic and this piece embraces the Victorian vibe while incorporating a steampunk style to produce an evocative, and functional, piece of jewelry.

A tiny pocket watch in brass with a white rabbit charm

That’s right, the clock is not just for show; it actually works. The quartz timepiece is battery powered so you’ll be able to keep time long after your phone loses battery. Amazingly, this piece is handmade, with a beautifully intricate design carved into the Kawaii bronze tone pendant. A White Rabbit charm completes the aesthetic and adds a playful splash. This pocket watch necklace is perfect for your next cosplay, costume party, or as an everyday accessory.

How do you like our Alice in Wonderland-inspired jewelry ideas? Do you have any favorites from your own collection that you’d like us to highlight? Let us know!

Meet The Author:

An itinerant storyteller, John Drain attended the University of Edinburgh before studying film at DePaul University in Chicago and later earned an MFA in Screenwriting from the American Film Institute Conservatory. John focuses on writing mysteries and thrillers featuring characters who are thrown into the deep end of the pool and struggle to just keep their heads above water. His work has been recognized by the Academy Nicholls Fellowship, the Austin Film Festival, ScreenCraft, Cinestory, and the Montreal Independent Film Festival. In a previous life, John created and produced theme park attractions across the globe for a wide variety of audiences. John keeps busy in his spare time with three Dungeons and Dragons campaigns and a seemingly never-ending stack of medieval history books.

All Things Alice: Interview with Rocco Rotunno

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Rocco Rotunno join me as my guest on this episode! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.

Frank Beddor:

Hey, Rocco, mastermind of the tagline Welcome to the show. Good to see you, man.

Rocco Rotunno:

Yeah, it’s been a while. I was looking up today our first project. It’s been a while. We go back to February of ‘97.

FB:

What? Yeah, Wicked, right?

RR:

It was for Second Wife. Yes, a Cannes sell sheet. It featured Julia Stiles, as you recall, in a small sort of breakout role.

FB:

Julia was clearly going to be a movie star. Because we started that film, we started shooting that film at the end of ’96 or ‘97, we were finishing and I just did not like that title, The Second Wife. You know? anything with “wife” felt, you know, it felt always going to be a melodrama about divorce. So, I came to you to retitle it correct?

RR:

I don’t think it was part of that. What I was a part of was coming up with a synopsis for your one sheet, a sell sheet, I think for Cannes. Now, the irony, was that when you invited me to the screening, my wife and I were sitting in back of Julia Stiles. She was really, really good. And you could tell she had a career, and I kind of tapped her on the shoulder afterward. And I said, “Well, congratulations on your brilliant coming career”. And the ironic thing was that about six months or maybe a year later, I got an assignment to work on 10 Things I Hate About You, which was for Disney Touchstone so that came out in probably was filmed in ‘98 After your film came out ’99. She happened to be with another unknown guy named Heath Ledger.

FB:

Yeah, little-known guy, Heath Ledger. I know. One of the reasons that I love doing this podcast is because I often learn more about my fellow writers and their backstories. Your career and your job are really fascinating because I don’t think it gets as much press. You guys are behind the scenes. Just kind of walk us through all the different things that you’re called upon to do as a freelance writer in the marketing of television and movies.

RR:

So little anecdote here, we had an acquaintance of my wife, and she had known her for a few years. And when they’re getting a little closer. She said, “So what is it exactly that your husband does?” And so my wife tried to explain, “he kind of writes a promotional copy in lines for films, it’s kind of film marketing, film advertising”. I think she gave her one of my lines, which I’m not going to say, but let’s give you a good one, the famous line from Alien. So you have a poster where you don’t really know what’s going on. They were really careful not to show the creature. And the poster line was “In space, no one can hear you scream”. Which is brilliant. It tells you everything. Tells you it’s in space, right? It tells you its horror in an upscale way, not in a slasher way. And it really encapsulates everything, and really did the heavy lifting. And so, the woman paused for a second, and she says, “So he gets paid for that?” And so, what I do starts with the written word or at least some sort of a concept of what a project is going to be about. And I’ll get to read a script, or in some cases, there may be a semi-finished version of the film or TV show. And I’ll read or watch that. And, you know, I’ll make my notes about what I think it’s about or what are some important things.

FB:

Part of what you do is coming up with clever, humorous, totally appropriate taglines or phrases because you have very few words. Like I just saw a one sheet for Meg, the shark movie. And the tagline was “New Meg, Old Chum”. Now, that’s a pretty good tagline. And you mentioned Alien, which was a classic. And so, when you’re coming up with that process, there are I would imagine, hundreds and hundreds of versions. Until the studio or whoever your partners are in the marketing, you know, say “This is the one”. That’s not so easy. From my standpoint, that seems really hard, which is why I always reach out to you, what are the creative elements that you use to come up with that stuff?

RR:

The main thing that sort of starts me off is I’ll write down things. I’ll have some information from the client, though that in a brief, they’ll say, “Well, we kind of want to sell the film this way”. So I keep an eye out for those things. Or, you might want to use some lines from the film. They kind of have an idea, maybe sometimes not so good of an idea, of how they want to sell the movie. And they want to touch on a lot of different things, perhaps. They call that writing to these buckets. So, they might say, “We have five ways we’re thinking about this”. And ultimately, what happens though, is to kind of hedge their bets a little bit they’ll also do some market research and have some focus groups. And so, different things can happen along the way, they may initially want to show one thing or say one thing, and I’ll be called in and that’ll be called, like an “exploration”, that’s basically the best way to put it. Copy exploration. And yeah, I personally could work to 300 different titles or 50 to 100 or 150 taglines, then come back and do some more. And it just takes some time. It’s trying to figure out you know, and more often than that ends up in the last minute.

FB:

I want to go to some of your tag lines. And I want to start with 10 Things I Hate About You because as you pointed out, that was starring Julia Stiles and Heath Ledger when he was up and coming. The movie, Wicked premiered at Sundance Film Festival, and Julia Stiles was really discovered at the Sundance Film Festival, which was in 1998. And she then went on, as you said, right after that, to do this Disney movie 10 Things I Hate About You, which you alluded to is sort of a teen rom-com setup of Shakespeare’s The Taming of the Shrew. “How do I loathe thee? Let me count the ways”. That’s good. That’s actually good. Because, you know, in a romantic comedy, two people that clearly don’t like each other, come to fall in love. Right? That’s the essence of romantic comedy. So just walk us through that process for you.

RR:

Yeah, I think clients and the general public respond to things that are twists on something that’s commonly known. That is familiar. So, that’s how I got to “How do I loathe thee?”

FB:

So, you work as a freelancer. Do you work with different boutique advertising agencies? They call you up and say, “Hey, this is what we’re doing”, or does the studio call you directly? How does that work?

RR:

It can be either or both sometimes, but generally, I would say it’s the boutique because that’s what they do. The studio generally is in charge of handing it out to the boutiques and the boutiques to me, and occasionally it’ll be the studio itself, but that’s rarer.

FB:

I don’t want to embarrass you, Rocco, but I’m really impressed with a lot of the taglines you’ve done – so let’s go through some of them, and just tell us quickly, you know, what you were thinking of? What were you aiming for? So, the first one is, “Take What’s Yours”. This was for season one of Succession.

RR:

Conflict, you know, what drives every story? Right?

FB:

Absolutely. Conflict. And conflict, that’s going to come up a lot. And that’s certainly going to come up with the next tag that everybody’s gonna know, “War is Coming”. Everybody knows that is Game of Thrones. But the difference is, this was for season two. So, people had watched this first season. Tell us what the thinking was there.

RR:

Yeah, in this particular case, it’s similarly done in successive seasons. And it really is the arc of the seasons together. And so, what do we want to put out there? They’ve been teasing war. And now it is coming and then the next season is, you know, “this one takes the throne” or something. Building on that story arc across seasons.

FB:

Here is one of my favorites. “Life’s not a word. It’s a sentence.” It was a while ago, but that was Oz for season one. That’s very clever.

RR:

The show has in it a little bit… I don’t want to say it’s lite because it’s about prison. But at the same time, I think especially with HBO premium, hopefully, clever, intelligent, right? You know, that’s what they want.

FB:

Well, here’s one of your comedies. And the tagline is “Smart, Is the New Sexy”. And smart is the new sexy is why that show is one of the biggest, most successful comedies ever. And of course, we’re talking about the Big Bang Theory.

RR:

It was impossible to know it was gonna be any different than any other show, but it just gives the idea these are intelligent people, and it’s not going to be your usual comedy. It’s going to be a sitcom, but not a super silly lowbrow one. I mean, obviously, the people in it are all very educated. And so, you’re getting something a little bit different.

FB:

Rocco, I came to you, obviously, about The Second Wife/ Wicked, but when I started writing my novel, The Looking Glass Wars, I knew it was a reimagining of Alice in Wonderland. So, I wanted to find a way to sort of capture the history, of Alice in Wonderland and culture and redefine it and re-reposition it for a contemporary audience. And, the title of books is really important. I always knew The Looking Glass Wars was going to be the title because it speaks to something very familiar, but it adds that dynamic of war and something ominous, and there’s something bigger going on. And then for the next book, Seeing Redd, I knew the title. And then for the third book I was struggling for a title. And I came to you to help with all of these. So I think my question to you is, how much did your knowledge or your sense of Alice and pop culture influence any of those titles you came up with?

RR:

Well, definitely Alyss being a stronger figure, stronger girl, rather than, you know, being swept around by all these characters. She’s taking charge, she wants to get her Queendom back. She’s in control. I think it’s just trying to get the idea of, you know, just a little shorter, a little bit more punch. So yeah, it’s a little combination of your input, things I knew about the original story, but more specifically your interpretation of the story. Going back to some file, and seeing if there was something that I put down, it could work, exploration.

FB:

So, you know, for instance, there was “Burning Borders”, which I really like, and I particularly like it today for whatever reason. You also had “Cross Border”. There was “Border Rains” and “Border Power”. But you know, you’re right, the exploration is great because a lot of times that exploration will produce phraseology or a couple of words that I can use in the marketing of social media that allows for like a little variation on what the story is. In that, why don’t you share your history with Alice in Wonderland? How did you come to Alice? Was it through the books or the movies or something else?

RR:

Actually, through the Disney film, you know? There are many, many versions. And it was the animated Disney animated film, which, of course, they kept everything a little bit lighter. But you know, there’s such classic elements to it. That’s why it’s continuously retold, but the story itself is classic. And you see reverberations of it everywhere. So, I think yeah, for me, that was that was the initial and then your re-invention of that story.

FB:

Well Rocco thank you so much for joining. It’s really fun to hear the stories and what went into them. I appreciate it.

RR:

Thank you Frank!

Diving into the Wonderland of Our Times: Tim Walker’s 2018 Pirelli Calendar and The Power of Inclusive Storytelling

In a world where diversity and inclusion are paramount, some art responds by not merely listening but by boldly stepping forward to mirror the multifaceted society we are today. One such example is the groundbreaking 2018 Pirelli Calendar, shot by Tim Walker. This iconic work does more than exhibit stunning fashion and skillful photography—it urges us to leap through the looking glass and question societal norms, thereby expanding our understanding of beauty, culture, and belonging.

Imagine tumbling down a rabbit hole and landing in a Wonderland that captures the essence of contemporary culture. In this groundbreaking reimagining of Alice in Wonderland, the familiar characters and whimsical settings are brought to life by an all-Black cast—transforming a classic narrative into a powerful reflection of modern society. Following in the transformative footsteps of Lin-Manuel Miranda’s Hamilton, which ingeniously retold American history through the lens of the modern multicultural fabric, this reimagined Alice confronts us with questions about race, inclusivity, and what it means to live one’s truth.

A Story for Our Time

Stories have a profound way of shaping our understanding of the world, and when they are inclusive, they can act as catalysts for societal change. Miranda’s Hamilton showed us that history isn’t just the story of a single race or class; it’s a complex tapestry woven from a multiplicity of experiences and perspectives. Similarly, Tim Walker’s reimagined Alice in Wonderland confronts us with a vivid landscape teeming with characters who may look different than the ones we grew up with but feel strikingly familiar. It invites us into a dialogue that is long overdue—a conversation about how race and inclusivity intersect with the stories we choose to tell and retell. The boldness of this adaptation lies not just in its casting choices but also in its audacity to challenge the status quo.

Beyond Diversity: An All-Black Cast as a Commitment

Featuring an all-black ensemble ranging from Naomi Campbell to RuPaul to Sean Combs, Walker’s Pirelli Calendar makes a profound statement about representation and visibility. This was not diversity for the sake of ticking a box; it was an intentional celebration of Black excellence and an assertion that beauty, like humanity, comes in many forms.

Whoopi Goldberg’s enigmatic presence stood out in her captivating portrayal of The Royal Duchess. The choice to involve her in the piece was brilliant when you consider Goldberg’s longstanding relationship with Wonderland. Fans of Alice adaptations might remember her enigmatic performance as the Cheshire Cat in NBC’s 1999 television movie and she was the basis for the cunning Queen of Clubs in my graphical novel Hatter M: Love of Wonder. She also voices the Alice in Wonderland statue in New York City’s Central Park, further cementing her connection to this magical world. Essentially, Goldberg has been a Wonderland resident for decades, making her a perfect fit for Walker’s reimagining.

A Collective Dream: The Power of Collaboration

It takes a village to reimagine a world. Walker’s vivid Wonderland came to life through his collaboration with other visionaries: set designer Shona Heath and stylist Edward Enninful. Enninful, the first Black editor of British Vogue, observed that the new Alice allows children of all backgrounds to embrace diversity from an early age. This was not merely an aesthetic choice; it was an ethical one.

“It is very important that the story of Alice be told to a new generation,” said Enninful in a press release. “Her adventure in Wonderland resonates with the world we live in today; obstacles we have to overcome and the idea of celebrating difference…To see a black Alice today means children of all races can embrace the idea of diversity from a very young age and also acknowledge that beauty comes in all colors…Projects like this remarkable Pirelli Calendar demonstrate that there is still hope in what sometimes feels like an increasingly cynical reality.”

Reclaiming Wonderland: Inclusivity, Race, and Living One’s Authentic Truth

The creative team are living their truth by reclaiming a narrative that had long been framed within an all too narrow scope of racial and cultural representation. In a world authenticity can be an act of courage, the importance of seeing oneself in the stories we cherish must not be understated. It’s imperative to recognize the value behind what some may call “nonsense”. This reimagining of Alice in Wonderland doesn’t just entertain—it provokes, inspires, and most of all, includes.

It infuses the well-known narrative with the colors, textures, and voices of our diverse world, connecting the archetypal titan with reality. By doing so, it holds up a mirror to society and begs a more meaningful examination of our own narrow viewpoints. It reminds us that the road to a more inclusive future is built by the stories we tell our children, the shows we produce, and the art we leave behind.

As we venture through this fresh and vibrant Wonderland, we’re not merely spectators—we’re participants in a cultural moment that compels us to rethink long-standing narratives. It challenges us to look beyond the superficial and delve into the deep well of human experience, where all are invited, but not all have been previously welcomed.

By daring to dream of a different Wonderland, we all take one step closer to realizing a more inclusive and harmonious world.

A Journey Through Time and Imagination

Behind the scenes of the 2018 Pirelli Calendar lies a world of creativity and innovation. The photo shoots, the stories, and the personalities that brought Wonderland to life are as intriguing as the final images themselves. The calendar’s website, www.pirellicalendar.com, is a treasure trove of content that allows us to delve deeper into this iconic project.

Explore the history of The Pirelli Calendar, spanning more than 50 years, through films, interviews, photographs, and previously unpublished texts. It offers a comprehensive look at the evolution of this artistic endeavor, providing vital context for understanding its cultural significance and its enduring appeal.

The Stage is Set: “The Looking Glass Wars” Deserves a Broadway Show Like “Wicked”

For those who have found themselves mesmerized by the transformative narrative of Gregory Maguire’s “Wicked,” a Broadway adaptation that turned the world of “The Wizard of Oz” upside down, and proved once again, audiences gravitate toward stories that are “familiar” but told in “unfamiliar” ways.

Frank Beddor’s “The Looking Glass Wars” does just that and more, it should be the next big thing in Broadway adaptations, and here’s why.

A dramatic photo from the stage production of Wicked -- Idina Menzel as the Wicked Witch Elphaba lifts into the air with dramatic blue stage lighting and the cast kneeling below in reverence

Reigniting the Franchise:

Alice’s Adventure in Wonderland is not only an iconic and successful franchise, but it has a profound impact on popular culture across the globe. Successful attempts to reignite previously established franchises frequently take the form of either an origin story or the introduction of new characters/worlds. The Looking Glass Wars combines both historically successful narrative methods by giving the audience the real story behind Alice and expanding that story into a wholly reimagined Wonderland. Wicked (The Untold Story) reinvented the iconic story of the Wizard of Oz and went on to become one of the most successful Broadway musicals of all time.

Familiar Yet Unique:

Both “Wicked” and “The Looking Glass Wars” take on the Herculean task of reinventing cherished universes. If “Wicked” challenges everything you thought you knew about the Wicked Witch of the West, “The Looking Glass Wars” does the same for Lewis Carroll’s “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland.” The story deviates from the whimsical Wonderland we think we know, reimagining it as a darker, more complex world with political intrigue and battle-hardened characters. Just as “Wicked” made audiences rethink Oz, “The Looking Glass Wars” has the potential to take us down an entirely different rabbit hole.

A promotional image from the Looking Glass Wars Musical of young Alyss (you may know her as Alice) falling down the distorted rabbit hole from Wonderland to London

Empowering A 21st-century Heroine:

Perhaps one of the most striking features of “The Looking Glass Wars” is its transformation of the traditionally passive Alice into Alyss Heart, a confident and powerful warrior. This shift aligns well with modern-day expectations and aspirations for female characters in storytelling. Gone is the bewildered girl merely reacting to a world gone mad; in her place is a proactive, imaginative woman grappling with responsibilities, moral choices, and her own destiny. In the #MeToo era, where stories of female empowerment are resonating more than ever, Alyss Heart could stand as an icon of what it means to be a woman of agency and substance.

The Multi-Cultural, Multi-Generational Affair:

“The Looking Glass Wars” isn’t just a retelling of an old tale; it’s a story for our time. Its characters come from a multitude of backgrounds, reflecting the cultural diversity of our world. This lends the narrative a multi-generational appeal, making it a story that can resonate with audiences young and old. By presenting a Wonderland that mirrors the diversity of our own society, this adaptation could be as meaningful for grandparents as it is for their grandchildren.

A promotional image from the Looking Glass Wars Musical of Queen Redd in an art nouveau style as Card Soldiers march menacingly

Enduring Relevance:

Like a timeless song that never fades from public consciousness, the characters and worlds created by Lewis Carroll have always held a place in our collective imagination. “The Looking Glass Wars” taps into this enduring fascination but updates it for contemporary audiences, adding layers of psychological complexity, socio-political commentary, and ethical dilemmas that make it relatable for today’s world. The issues that troubled Alice and her real-world counterparts are not just issues of a bygone era; they are questions that continue to challenge us, making the story eternally relevant.

Multifaceted Characters:

One of the reasons “Wicked” garnered such immense success is its ability to humanize the Wicked Witch, revealing the events and motives that shaped her into the character we encounter in “The Wizard of Oz.” Similarly, “The Looking Glass Wars” gives depth and nuance to Alice, here rebranded as Alyss Heart, the rightful queen of Wonderland. The characters are ripe for the Broadway stage, filled with emotional layers, inner turmoil, and dynamic relationships that can be brought to life through powerful solos and duets.

A promotional image from the Looking Glass Wars Musical of adult Alice amid London high society, a sea of silhouetted top hat wearing gentlemen crowd around her.

Narrative Complexity:

Broadway has a history of celebrating intricate, thoughtful narratives, and “The Looking Glass Wars” provides just that. While the original “Alice in Wonderland” focuses on nonsensical adventures, Beddor’s reinterpretation infuses Wonderland with political instability, war, and exile. This is a story that allows for a complex web of sub-plots, a feature that can help sustain a two-act Broadway musical with aplomb.

A Visual Feast:

Wonderland, as conceived by Frank Beddor, is not just a setting but also a character. Its fantastical elements offer an exciting challenge for set designers, lighting experts, and costume creators. Imagine the spectacular scenes that could be staged: card soldiers marching into battle, morphing landscapes, and dazzling interpretations of familiar settings like the Heart Palace. If Broadway could make flying monkeys and a shimmering Emerald City, a la “Wicked,” think of the stunning visuals that Wonderland could offer.

A promotional image from the Looking Glass Wars Musical of Alyss reconnecting with Hatter Madigan and rediscovering her true past

Music and Emotional Resonance:

Let’s not forget the essential element of any musical: the score. “The Looking Glass Wars” provides a range of emotional highs and lows that could be captured through an array of musical choices. Anywhere from “At the End of the Day” (Les Misérables) to “Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again” (Phantom of the Opera) to “Your Song” (Moulin Rouge) or “Sun and Moon” (Miss Saigon.)

From the poignant moments of Alyss contemplating her lost throne to the exhilarating action sequences, music can be the heartbeat of this adaptation, engaging audiences just as Stephen Schwartz’s music did for “Wicked.”

The Time is Now:

In an era where audiences crave stories that can simultaneously entertain and make them think, a Broadway adaptation of “The Looking Glass Wars” is more relevant than ever. People want to be surprised, to see old stories through a new lens. With its layered characters, intricate plot, and visually striking world, “The Looking Glass Wars” can be Broadway’s next big hit, offering a fresh yet nostalgic experience that appeals to both Alice aficionados and newcomers alike.

A promotional image from the Looking Glass Wars Musical of Alyss and Hatter Madigan in action as they return to Wonderland to reclaim her throne!

Conclusion:

While the realm of Broadway is already filled with adaptations and revivals, there’s always room for groundbreaking work that challenges our perceptions of classic tales. If “Wicked” could breathe new life into the Land of Oz, there’s no reason “

” can’t do the same for Wonderland. Frank Beddor’s masterpiece has all the makings of a Broadway sensation: memorable characters, a gripping plot, and a fantastical world that’s begging to be brought to life on stage. It’s high time we go through the looking glass and see for ourselves.

A photo of the broadway cast of Wicked The Musical posing at the end of a big number.

Meet The Author:

Teresa Lin was born in Taipei, Taiwan, and grew up in Tampa, Florida. She attended Duke University and the film program at USC. She started her career working in development for Janet Yang and Oliver Stone. Then she worked on “Frasier” at Paramount. She got her big break as a writer on “Bones” and has projects in development for Automatic Pictures. She intends to produce stories over multiple platforms, raising awareness, empathy and inclusivity. She lives in Los Angeles with her two kids, her husband, his two children, and three bunnies.

The Magic of Public Domain: How Peter Pan and Alice In Wonderland Benefit You

In the world of literature and storytelling, certain tales transcend time. They captivate generation after generation with their enduring magic. “Classics” like Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, and Sherlock Holmes have become beloved stories, cherished by readers of all ages across time and space. What sets these titans of fiction apart is not just their timeless appeal. Their unique and shared status in the realm of copyright law is having entered the public domain. But what does that mean, and how does it extend to be of benefit to society?

Understanding the Public Domain

Before probing the benefits to culture, let’s clarify what “public domain” means in the context of literature and storytelling. In essence, when a work enters the public domain, it is no longer protected by copyright. It is free for anyone to use, adapt, and share without the need for permission or payment to the original creator or their estate. This typically occurs after a codified number of years following the author’s death or due to specific copyright expiration laws. There is of course a deep well of nuance to these laws, but the general lifecycle of material entering this realm of accessibility is standardized.

Now, let’s explore the public domain more deeply and the advantages stories with this status offer to society.

A fine leather bound collection of

1. Preservation of Cultural Heritage

Content from the public domain becomes part of our shared cultural heritage. They are not only stories, but rather pieces of history that reflect the values, attitudes, and creativity of the time in which they were written. These bits of our collective history are an ineffable time capsule. By ensuring these works remain accessible to all, society can preserve its cultural legacy and pass it down to future generations without fear of greed corrupting the past for its own gain.

Alice in Wonderland, with its whimsical exploration of a surreal world, invites readers to question the absurdity of their own reality—a skill as vital now as it was in Victorian England. Peter Pan, with Neverland as its backdrop, explores ever-relevant themes of eternal youth and the bittersweet journey of growing up. The Wizard of Oz takes readers on a fantastical journey and back again through a land of imagination and self-discovery which remains precious long after the Dust Bowl settled. And then there’s Sherlock Holmes, the brilliant detective whose keen observations continue to captivate readers and inspire the love of mystery-solving. Humanity will never transcend the thirst for problem-solving that Sherlock feeds with every page, and that is so easily transposed to the modern landscape.

2. Promoting Creativity and Innovation

Public domain stories serve as fertile ground for new creative works. Writers, artists, and filmmakers can freely build upon these timeless narratives, crafting adaptations, remixes, and interpretations that breathe new life into the original tales. This encourages innovation and fosters a thriving creative ecosystem, as creators don’t have to navigate complex copyright restrictions.

Consider the multitude of adaptations and retellings of these classic stories. Alice’s adventures have been reimagined in various forms, from darker, more mature interpretations to children’s books featuring a modern-day Alice. Oz-inspired works have explored the Land of Oz from different angles and perspectives. Sherlock Holmes has graced countless novels, movies, and TV series, both faithful to the original stories and creatively reinterpreted in different time periods and settings. This free flow of creativity enriches our cultural landscape.

3. Accessibility and Inclusivity

One of the most significant benefits of stories in the public domain is increased accessibility. These stories are readily available to everyone, regardless of their financial means. Libraries, schools, and digital platforms can distribute them freely, making literature more inclusive and allowing people from all walks of life to enjoy these classics without barriers.

In a world where access to books and entertainment is often tied to economic circumstances, the availability of public domain works levels the playing field. A child in a disadvantaged community can have the same opportunity to explore the adventures of Peter Pan or the mysteries of Sherlock Holmes as a child in a more privileged environment.

4. Educational Opportunities

Public domain stories are valuable educational resources. Teachers can use them in the classroom to engage students in discussions about literature, history, and culture. Moreover, scholars and researchers can analyze and study these works without the constraints of copyright, leading to a deeper understanding of the stories and their impact on society.

The educational value of these stories extends beyond the classroom. It includes lifelong learning opportunities for people of all ages who can delve into these works, uncovering layers of meaning, historical context, and literary techniques that continue to influence storytelling.

5. Nurturing a Sense of Ownership

When stories like Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, and Sherlock Holmes enter the public domain, they become part of the collective consciousness. People feel a sense of ownership and connection to these tales, fostering a strong sense of community and shared cultural identity.

These stories are not just relics of the past but living entities that continue to shape our cultural conversations. We see ourselves in Alice as she navigates a surreal world, in Dorothy’s journey of self-discovery, in Sherlock Holmes’ relentless pursuit of truth, and in Peter Pan’s longing for eternal youth.

6. Encouraging Adaptations and Interpretations

Public domain status allows for a multitude of adaptations that cater to different tastes and preferences. From reimagined books to theatrical productions, these stories can be explored through various mediums, allowing for a diverse range of interpretations and experiences.

The enduring appeal of these tales lies in their adaptability. They can be reworked to fit contemporary sensibilities, making them relevant to new generations. Alice in Wonderland can be a whimsical fantasy or a social commentary. The Land of Oz can be a place of wonder or a backdrop for profound introspection. Sherlock Holmes can be the quintessential Victorian detective or a character in a modern-day setting. Peter Pan can be a symbol of youthful escapism or a reflection of the complexities of growing up.

Conclusion

When we celebrate the magic of public domain stories, we are also looking forward to new generations of writers, artists, and storytellers who will draw inspiration from these touchstones of culture. The open door to create, free of copyright’s binds, ensures that the cycle of creativity and cultural enrichment continues for years to come. In the public domain, these stories truly belong to us all, and it is up to each generation to keep their magic alive.

The future is a place of endless possibilities built upon the strong foundation of our collective past. We must honor the great imagination already infused into our world with the freedom to make our mark when the day comes for us to have our turn. Public domain protects that very ability.

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