ALL THINGS ALICE: INTERVIEW WITH TERESA LIN, PART 3

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Teresa Lin join me as my guest for Part 2 of our deep dive into our creative process! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.

Image of screenwriter Teresa Lin set against the book cover for the coming-of-age supernatural mystery novel "Static" along with the logo for the "All Things Alice" podcast.

Frank Beddor 
Hey, everybody, welcome back to All Things Alice. Today I’m with my savant, creative wife, Teresa Beddor Lin. Today we’re going to use Alice as a muse, as a metaphor for creativity as it relates to a separate project, Static, which is a book project I’m very proud of. I had nothing to do with the writing of this book but I did have something to do with the publishing of this book. I’ll give you a little background. 

I have a friend, Eric Laster, who’s written a number of books. His first book was published through Simon and Schuster and he had about 90 pages of a young adult paranormal mystery manuscript. I read the pages and I fell in love with the concept. I kept asking him, “Hey, when can I read more pages?” Over time, he would share pages as he felt confident in the work, and at the end of the day, when he finished the novel, I blurted out, “I would like to help you publish this book.” I was working on Hatter Madigan: Ghost in the H.A.T.B.O.X., at the time and I wanted to start a small publishing company called Automatic Publishing. I decided that Eric’s book would be the first that we would publish under the new imprint. 

It was an amazing creative experience. But at the same time I was working with Eric on the book, I was also thinking about adapting the novel as a television show. That’s what Theresa and I are here to talk about, the process of adapting a literary work and what choices you make when turning it into a viable TV property. The name of Eric Lester’s book is Static. It’s a coming-of-age, murder mystery, young adult novel. Here’s the book jacket description: 

“When Curtis Brooks starts receiving phone calls from his older brother Wilt, who’s been dead a week, he’s sure it’s to help him find evidence that will lead to a murderer’s arrest. But Wilt claims he wasn’t murdered; his calling, meant to help him adjust, is standard protocol for newly deceased at the Aftermart—a kind of inescapable, ever-expanding Walmart filled with discontinued products.

Wilt’s death ruled a homicide, Curtis embarks on a dangerous plan to find the killer, which soon has him scheming against a billionaire and floundering toward love with his brother’s ex-girlfriend Suzy, all while struggling through high school and his single mom’s poor choices.

Why does Wilt help Curtis win over Suzy, even as he organizes a rebellion at the Aftermart? Who’d wanted him dead? Curtis risks his life to answer these questions, in the process forging a bond with his brother unlike any they’ve ever had.”

One of the things that I really fell in love with was the relationship between the two brothers. At the beginning of the book, they’re estranged, and by the end of the book they’ve come to really appreciate and love each other in a much deeper way. Having said all of that, I’m going to let Teresa read you the pitch for the television show. Then we’re going to get into some of the reasons why we made these choices and changes.

Eric Laster, author of the coming-of-age supernatural mystery novel "Static," posing with folded arms in a blue sweater.
Cover of Eric Laster's coming-of-age supernatural mystery novel "Static," depicting an illustration of a smartphone under blue light.

TL
In terms of the brother story, Static the TV show has evolved into a brother-sister story. We wanted to drop in on the point of view of an unreliable narrator, who was Curtis and is now Danni. Danni is 16-years-old and investigates her brother Wilt’s murder so his soul can move on in the Aftermart. We had to really hone in on what the Aftermart was and for the purposes of the show, the Aftermart became a retail way station where souls shop until they find the item that resolves their death. With Danni and Wilt, there are a series of calls that only they can hear and they must work together through absurd comedic and dangerous circumstances to catch the bad guys, bringing the family back together and learning the most challenging lessons about love. When we’re conceptualizing a show, we’re always thinking about the engine. What’s driving the show forward? What are the characters going through that would create an arc for them? How do they change? How are they tested throughout the show? In the book, there were souls were shopping in the Aftermart but then they went to counseling. There wasn’t a way in which the shopping connected to the character’s sense of resolution. 

FB
What you’re talking about is there is a particular item that has a deep resident meaning for each character, which is a clue to why they haven’t left this way station. Resolving that mystery helps them transition to wherever they’re going to transition. One of the big things about the book and the show is setting up the mystery. 

TL
The mystery in both places. When Danni, the 16-year-old sister, digs into her brother’s story, she finds out this whole world and this whole life that her brother had that she didn’t know about.

FB
One of the things that’s not in the book that you introduced, separate from having a brother-sister story, was that Danni is really into murder mystery TV shows.

TL
We really had fun setting up and coloring Danni’s character. In creating the tone for the show, we really wanted to make her an unreliable narrator. Somebody obsessed with solving murder mysteries. Somebody who had been on medication her whole life, and then suddenly decides that she’s going to come off of her meds and she’s gonna take life by the horns and do this one thing for her brother. So through her lens, you have her enthusiastic deep dive into creating a case out of her brother’s death that may or not be real, but as we follow her into the story, the details of what her brother was involved in become larger than life.

Graphic of a chalkboard featuring an interconnected web of suspects from the coming-of-age supernatural mystery novel "Static".

FB
What’s really fun is her two friends who are really supporting her because she’s grieving and they think she’s going through these many different levels of grief.

TL
The seven steps of grieving. They’re trying to name it for her and, of course, she has these severe mood swings and they’re playing along in support of her while they’re on this murder mystery investigation, digging into places digitally and going behind the scenes.

FB
At first, they don’t believe her and it’s really amusing because they’re speculating on what’s going on with her. These are two boys who have a lot of hormones and are not that interested in exactly what she’s interested in. But eventually, they come around to believe that what’s happening is real for her.

TL
There’s a whimsical and mischievous element to the tone of the show. Then on the flip side, with the supernatural or the paranormal, you have the Aftermart that feels as grounded as going into a Target today. It’s a mirror of our world. There’s a hierarchy in the afterlife, with people who are obeying or are working for the Wu, which is the organizing power of the Aftermart.

FB
One of the pieces of feedback that Eric and I would often get when promoting his book at Comic-Cons or school events, was readers were really interested in the Aftermart. They were interested in how it works and the characters in the Aftermart. So in the television show, we decided to explore that and give equal weight to Danni in our world and Wilt in the Aftermart.

TL
In the novel, the Aftermart started as just a place for discontinued items. One of the ways we thought it would make a good engine is if the things in the Aftermart resonated with these characters and had sentimental value to wherever the soul is stuck. It could be an egg timer. It could be an action figure. Something that’s connected to an unresolved memory. So when you find your item, you’re able to flash back into that memory. Then you can check out, essentially.

FB
I still want to find a character whose item is a toilet with a clear back and the tank is an aquarium. 

TL
We had a lot of fun doing research for the show because we got to look up a lot of discontinued items from the 70s and 80s.

FB
There are things that young adults wouldn’t even know about. Certainly, my kids don’t know what an 8-track was. But there are all sorts of funny toys and concepts. That’s been fun, finding shelves for some of our favorite nostalgic items.

TL
It was fun thinking about how the Aftermart would be organized. We came up with the idea that it would be organized by era. I certainly enjoy thinking about the difference between our experience in the analog world versus the digital world and how that’s changed because the only way Wilt and Danni are communicating with each other is through a smartphone. 

FB
Only Danni can hear him.

TL
And everybody else only hears static. 

FB
Hence the title. 

Why don’t you talk about why you thought it would be better to have a brother-sister story versus two brothers? How different might that dynamic be? It sort of plays itself out in the beginning when Wilt is with Suzy, his girlfriend. They’re a couple years older than Danni and they’re completely ignoring her and they have a sexual life together. Danny is coming in and interrupting. It gives it a different flavor. 

TL
Danni has always been on the outside of love. Her obsession in the beginning with solving murder mysteries and reading science fiction and fantasy shows that she’s always been curious about what life feels like for the people on the other side. Even though her brother is one of the most popular kids at school, Danni’s always lived on the fringe. Maybe it’s because of her medication or the childhood trauma she’s been holding on to and has repressed these feelings. When her brother dies she rises to the occasion and starts to feel the need to do something.

There was something interesting for me about her relationship with Suzy. That goes beyond the attraction between them and the attraction to life, to being alive and seen and wanted and desired. I think for Danni, Suzy and Wilt had that meaning for her. She wanted to step into what her brother had and perhaps keep that alive.

FB
One of the other things that we were interested in doing was maximizing the setting. We thought Los Angeles would be a good setting because it’s very diverse. It’s not in the novel but because we’re turning it into a television show, we needed to get real specific.

Collection of four different images depicted the Los Angeles neighborhood of Koreatown, set within a teal border with text reading "Danni's Neighborhood" in the middle.

TL
One of the choices we made was to make Danni and Wilt biracial. So their mom is Korean and their estranged father, who eventually comes back into their life, is African American. I thought it was really interesting to shine a light on biracial families and the coupling between African American and Koreans, specifically in Los Angeles. We have a large Koreatown in Los Angeles and I thought it would be really interesting to have some of the underworld goings-on happen around there and use that to color in some of Danni’s choices and the places she goes to do her investigating.

FB
After working on the outline and conceptualizing these changes, then it’s the writing process. I’m interested in how you brought these choices together when you approached the pilot script.

TL
There were a lot of different evolutions and drafts but the anchor and the primary piece of it has always been Danni and her POV. It’s telling the story through her lens, setting her up as the unreliable narrator and letting us in on her thought process. Being able to see her spying on her neighbors and creating this big story out of nothing. Having her be The Girl Who Cried Wolf one too many times.

FB
You came up with that great scene, which was like a scene from Rear Window, to open up the pilot and it caused a lot of havoc at the apartment complex for her mother and for the neighbor. A detective shows up, who ultimately becomes a love interest to her mom.

TL
There was a lot of that. For me, a lot of what makes a show great is creating characters that people want to spend time with and who people want to root for. If you can create somebody who’s lovable, even though they’re awkward and weird and strange. Especially if they’re awkward and weird and strange, because we all, in some ways, feel that way inside. It makes those aspects of herself feel relatable and accessible.

FB
One of the ways we accentuated the unreliable narrator is that she’s on medication and seeing a therapist. 

TL
Yes. You have her therapist weighing in on her instability and her need to stay on her medication. There is a clear point in the pilot where she flushes all her medication down the toilet and decides to go cold turkey. There’s an aspect of the show that deals with mental health. It deals with grief and it deals with growing up in a broken family. It deals with feeling estranged from your own family and making choices about how to get back to a place where you understand each other. There can be an ocean of division and silence and disconnect between family members, as most of us can understand, at one point or another.

Static is about this disconnection that they’re trying to bridge through solving Wilt’s murder and through connecting with Wilt now that he’s dead and in the Aftermart. Danni wants to do something so his soul can move on and reconnecting with her mother is also a big piece of this. What defines family? What defines that connective tissue between your family members when life has gotten so far away from you and things feel so hard? What are the things we do that bring us back together?

FB
It’s all true in the story. It’s true in the pilot but that’s all subtextual. That makes good writing because you need that bubbly, attractive, whimsy of the Aftermart and the absurdity of the phone calls with Danni and Wilt. Danni’s two friends, Lou and Jeremy, who are in high school and find this stuff funny. The dynamic between Suzy, who’s lost somebody, and mourning, but wanting to post on Instagram about it. There’s a high school coming-of-age angst and comedic element to it. One of the shows that we were referencing in comparison to Static was the Netflix series Sex Education.

Still image of Aimee Lou Wood, Emma Mackey, and Asa Butterfield standing in front of yellow lockers from the Netflix series "Sex Education".

TL
It’s not as raunchy as Sex Education but there are certainly similarities with the tone, the humor, and the melodrama between the characters. There’s a lightness to the way their friends show up for each other. Despite all the dark stuff that they find out in the clues, it’s her getting excited about finding clues that takes us from episode to episode. Those reveals are fun to do.

FB
How about Wilt somehow helping Danni meet up with Suzy? He’s sort of encouraging it. Of course, she’s the most beautiful girl in high school so Lou and Jeremy are shocked when Danny goes and even starts to talk to Suzy. There’s a connection between them, an attraction, which is interesting.

TL
Their attraction to each other, both on soul and gender levels, is really relevant now, talking about, “What is attraction? What’s okay?” 

FB
Because they both loved Wilt. 

You could pitch this as a comedy. 

TL
Absolutely. It’s a drama but there’s definitely a lot of whimsical elements to it. Tonally, we were thinking of the movie Ghost. For those of you who don’t remember, it starred Whoopi Goldberg, Patrick Swayze, and Demi Moore.

FB
You have Shawn, the counselor in the Aftermart, who’s very uptight but comedic and trying to control what is uncontrollable. 

TL
Parts of the Aftermart are structured a bit like The Good Place and there’s a certain hierarchy and structure that mirrors the bureaucracy in our world. But for the characters, if you think about Ghost and how funny it was when Whoopi Goldberg was going around hearing ghosts and no one believed her, and she just looked like a lunatic. I thought a lot about her while writing Danni. How convinced she is because she really does hear Wilt and she can’t believe nobody else does. She’s just going for it anyway. That makes her a really lovable character to me.

FB
We’ve spoken to a couple of directors and we’ve landed on one that we’re going to be working with. I haven’t gotten the approval from him to talk about him. 

TL
We’re excited to have a hot director attached.

FB
He brings a look and feel to the project that I think is really unique, especially in the Aftermart. 

Graphic of a Walmart-style department store set inside a teal border with text reading "Into the Aftermart" superimposed over the image.

TL
The director referenced the Meow Wolf exhibit in Las Vegas. The Aftermart has a very similar quality where there are corridors that go to nowhere and doors that open to no place and things are sectioned and recategorized.

And, of course in the Aftermart, there are levels and corridors that lead to another level. You see souls check out from the Aftermart and go beyond it. What the afterlife looks like beyond the Aftermart gives us a great way into the second season. The first season works really well and we love the idea of solving murders and resolving deaths from the other side. So the idea for Season Two is that Wilt and his friends in the Aftermart, stabilize a technology that allows them to connect with the living. So with Danni on the side of the living and Wilt on the side of the souls, they start to solve murder cases from both sides. So we’re very excited about that direction.

FB
With the pandemic and then the Writers’ and SAG strikes, a lot of projects had been put on hold, including this one, and now people are trying to find their way. This is a young adult novel, therefore, it’s a young adult show. I see a lot of those types of shows on Netflix and other networks. We are taking the material with our hot, young, talented director, and we’re gonna go out and sell it. Hopefully, the next time we talk about Static, we’ll be in pre-production or shooting the show. 

TL
I hope to share some more good news with you guys.

FB
If anybody would like to read the novel, you can pick it up on frankbeddor.com. Thank you, Teresa, for sharing your insight.

TL
Always a pleasure. We love talking about our process. 

FB
It’s always fun to talk about getting from point A to point B and trying to make progress as creatives. I guess I’m gonna have to start a new podcast, All Things Creative with Teresa Lin.

TL
We’ll make sure to keep creating things so we have something to talk about.


For the latest updates & news about All Things Alice,  please read our blog and subscribe to our podcast!

Top 10 Julia Stiles Performances Ranked

Julia Stiles recently wrapped production on her directorial debut, “Wish You Were Here,” which she adapted from the bestseller of the same name by Renee Carlino. The romance stars Isabelle Fuhrman (The Hunger Games, The Novice) as a directionless server whose whirlwind one-night-stand with a terminally ill painter changes both of their lives. The film marks the culmination of an evolution for the Emmy and Golden Globe-nominated Stiles. With her tour-de-force breakthrough in the thriller Wicked, directed by Michael Steinberg and produced by Frank Beddor, Stiles launched a near-thirty-year career in front of the camera, which has produced a wide range of entertaining, compelling, and iconic performances. With her first directorial effort in the can, let’s take a look back at Julia Stiles’ top ten roles.


Still image of Julia Stiles and Heath Ledger covered in paint from the 1999 teen romantic comedy film "10 Things I Hate About You".

10 Things I Hate About You

Following the rabid reaction at Sundance to her debut lead role in Wicked, Julia Stiles was cast in the 1999 romantic comedy 10 Things I Hate About You, Gil Junger’s modern-day retelling of William Shakespeare’s The Taming of the Shrew. Stiles is transcendent as Katarina “Kat” Strafford, an antisocial high schooler who is pursued by Patrick Verona (Heath Ledger), an Australian bad boy who is paid to woo Kat as part of a plot designed to get her father (Larry Miller) to relax his restrictions regarding dating for Kat and her younger sister Bianca (Larisa Oleynik). Starring opposite the sublime Ledger, Stiles deftly blends rage, intelligence, and vulnerability to create a beautiful portrayal of a young woman learning to allow herself to be loved and be loved. The film grossed $60 million at the box office and has become an iconic piece of 90s pop culture. The emotional core of the movie, Stiles’ performance was lauded by critics and led to a Most Promising Actress award from the Chicago Film Critics Association and established her as an up-and-coming star.

Still image of Julia Stiles and Sean Patrick Thomas dancing from the 2001 romance film "Save the Last Dance".

Save the Last Dance

Stiles cemented her status as a cult teen hero with her turn as Julliard hopeful Sara Johnson in the 2001 hit Save the Last Dance. A part of the wave of early 2000s teen dance movies, Save the Last Dance follows Sara, who quits ballet and moves to the South Side of Chicago with her father after her mother dies in a car accident. Depressed and struggling to navigate her new life, Sara is reinvigorated when she falls for Derek (Sean Patrick Thomas) at a hip-hop dance club at her new school. Their love motivates Sara to continue to pursue her passion for ballet and her dreams of attending Julliard. Stiles again imbues her character with a strength and wit uncommon for the genre and displays undeniable chemistry with Thomas. Stiles trained in ballet and hip-hop for two months ahead of shooting, preparation that paid off when Save the Last Dance debuted at #1 at the box office en route to taking in $131.7 million worldwide. Stiles was nominated for a host of awards and that dance scene has become an iconic teen movie moment, which she reenacted alongside Chloe Fineman on Saturday Night Live in 2023.

Still image of Julia Stiles and Michael C. Hall in a bathroom from Season 5 of the Showtime crime drama television series "Dexter".

Dexter – Season 5

Julia Stiles breathed new life into Dexter with her performance as Lumen Pierce in Season 5. Pierce is a survivor of an attack by a group of men including rapist-serial killer Boyd Fowler. When Pierce witnesses Dexter (Michael C. Hall) kill Fowler, she tries to convince the vigilante to help her take revenge on the rest of her attackers. Initially reluctant, Dexter eventually agrees to help her get vengeance and the two kindred souls develop a romantic relationship. In Dexter, Stiles showcases her ability to portray strength through vulnerability. Her grounded style lends authenticity to the sometimes over-the-top show and helps to humanize Hall’s murderous forensic technician. Stiles’ ten-episode arc as Lumen Pierce “totally changed” her mind about working in television and proved to be one of the most critically acclaimed roles of her career, resulting in Golden Globes and Emmy nominations.

Still image of Julia Stiles in a red shirt and heavy eye shadow from the 1998 thriller film "Wicked".

Wicked

Julia Stiles’ audition for disturbed Ellie Christianson in the 1998 thriller Wicked blew away director Michael Steinberg and producer Frank Beddor, who said, “…we knew. She was Ellie. She also had IT.” The sixteen-year-old Stiles continued to wow her employers and co-stars with her intense portrayal of Ellie, a fourteen-year-old whose twisted obsession with her father (William R. Moses) and hatred of her mother (Chelsea Field) leads to horrifying consequences. Stiles’ performance is pure adolescent rage, depicting a girl who hates the world and will stop at nothing to get what she wants. But Ellie is no caricature. Stiles continuously reminds us that Ellie is still a child, adding depth and shading by showing her character’s insecurities. The result is a nuanced portrayal that still incites empathy for a character whose actions are truly detestable. Wicked proved to be Stiles’ breakthrough. The film was a smash at the 1998 Sundance Film Festival where Stiles’ performance made her “the darling of the festival” and she won the award for Best Actress at the Karlovy Vary International Film Festival in the Czech Republic.

Still image of Julia Stiles and Matt Damon from Paul Greengrass' 2007 espionage action-thriller film "The Bourne Ultimatum".

Bourne Franchise

Julies Stiles stole scenes with her role as CIA logistics technician Nicky Parsons in four of the Jason Bourne films opposite Matt Damon’s amnesiac assassin. An adversary turned ally, Parsons works for Treadstone, a shadowy CIA black-ops program that utilizes behavioral modification to develop almost superhuman assassins. In the first two films, The Bourne Identity and The Bourne Supremacy, Parsons is a CIA operative who aids the hunt to capture Bourne. But in the third film, The Bourne Ultimatum, Parsons grows disillusioned with the CIA and helps Bourne evade his pursuers. As a character archetype, Nicky Parsons could’ve simply been a functionary. A character whose sole purpose was to move the plot forward by feeding information and exposition to the protagonist. But in Stiles’ hands, Nicky becomes essential to Bourne’s growth as a character. Stiles matches Damon’s intensity step for step, helping to set the foundation for a series of brooding, gritty, and spellbinding action thrillers.

Still image of Julia Stiles in a sauna from the 2001 drama film "The Business of Strangers".

The Business of Strangers

Tony-winning actor Stockard Channing said of her The Business of Strangers co-star: “In addition to her talent, she has an almost feral quality, something that can make people uneasy. She has an effect on people.” Rave reviews from critics are wonderful, but it’s arguably more important when praise comes from those you work with. In Patrick Stettner’s indie drama, Julia Stiles plays Paula, an assistant who helps her former boss Julie take revenge on Nick, a headhunter with whom Paula has a dark connection, when the three are stuck in a hotel after their flights are canceled. Paula is a woman of many secrets, and Stiles plays it perfectly, setting up a series of thrilling twists and turns. Her chemistry with Channing is electric and their back-and-forth drives the emotional resonance of the story. Stiles again reveled in success at Sundance as the film was nominated for a Grand Jury Prize and she was later nominated for Best Supporting Actress at the Satellite Awards.

Still image of Julia Stiles and Alec Baldwin in front of a window from the 2000 David Mamet dark comedy film "State and Main".

State and Main

One of the hallmarks of Julia Stiles’ career is her ability to elevate an ensemble. This talent is conspicuously on display in David Mamet’s 2000 comedy State and Main. The film tracks the effects that a film production and its crew have on a small Vermont town. It’s packed with stars, including William H. Macy, Sarah Jessica Parker, and Philip Seymour Hoffman (and John Krasinski in his acting debut). Stiles plays Carla, a crafty local who develops a relationship with Alec Baldwin’s Bob Barrenger, the film’s star who is attracted to underage girls. Stiles is electric in her nuanced portrayal of Carla, showcasing once again her ability to show strength through vulnerability. Her performance is an essential piece of a stellar cast, one that earned Best Cast awards from the Florida Film Critics Circle, the Online Film Critics Society, and the National Board of Review.

Still image of Julia Stiles and Jennifer Lopez in a prison interrogation room from the 2019 crime comedy-drama film "Hustlers".

Hustlers

Lorene Scafaria’s 2019 crime comedy-drama Hustlers is a visually stunning caper that blends piercing comedy with profound character work. The surprise hit drew comparisons to Goodfellas and praise for the star-studded cast, which included Jennifer Lopez, Constance Wu, Lili Reinhart, Keke Palmer, Lizzo, Cardi B, and, of course, Julia Stiles. Stiles portrays Elizabeth, a journalist following the exploits of a group of New York City strippers who drug and rob stock traders and corporate executives who patronize their club. Stiles doesn’t have the most glamorous role in the film, but she performs an essential function that makes the movie work. Her character represents the audience, giving us a platform through which we empathize and come to love these characters. Her blend of strength and warmth is on full display as she endeavors to tell the story of this diverse, multi-dimensional group of women.

Still image of Julia Stiles, Jennifer Lawrence, and Bradley Cooper from the 2012 David O. Russell romantic dramedy film "Silver Linings Playbook".

Silver Linings Playbook

Julia Stiles once again proves a scene stealer in David O. Russell’s Oscar-nominated 2012 romantic dramedy Silver Linings Playbook. The film follows a former teacher, Pat Solitano (Bradley Cooper), with bipolar disorder who endeavors to win back his ex-wife after being released from a psychiatric hospital. But his plans are thrown into glorious disarray when he meets Tiffany Maxwell, a widowed dancer who promises to help Pat win his wife back if he enters a dance competition with her. In a supporting cast filled with heavyweights including Robert De Niro, Jacki Weaver, and Chris Tucker, Stiles stands out as Veronica, Tiffany’s spirited sister. Stiles punctuates brilliant performances from Cooper and Lawrence with her strength and energy, perfectly encapsulating the Philadelphia energy. Stiles earned a host of awards nominations as part of the ensemble, winning at the Critics’ Choice Movie Awards, as the film was nominated for eight Academy Awards, with Lawrence winning for Best Actress.

Still image of Julia Stiles and Mekhi Phifer sitting in a high school gym from the 2001 romantic thriller film "O".

O

The turn of the century saw a run on modern-day retellings of William Shakespeare’s works and Stiles seemed to appear in every one. After starring in 10 Things I Hate About You and Hamlet opposite Ethan Hawke, Stiles plays the Desdemona character in Tim Blake Nelson’s adaptation of Othello, O. Led by Mekhi Phifer as Odin (Othello), and Josh Hartnett as Hugo (Iago), O sets the Bard’s tragedy in a posh prep school where Hugo concocts a devious plan to destroy Odin due to his jealousy of Odin’s heroic exploits on the basketball court. Stiles and Phifer have electric chemistry as the doomed lovers, playing their complex relationship with nuance and power. Stiles imbues Desi with a hidden strength and engenders empathy in the viewers, making for a heart-wrenching experience when Hugo’s plot comes to fruition and Odin tragically murders Desi. Stiles’ firm grasp of her craft and psychology helps to show the continuing relevance of Shakespeare’s work.


An itinerant storyteller, John Drain attended the University of Edinburgh before studying film at DePaul University in Chicago and later earned an MFA in Screenwriting from the American Film Institute Conservatory. John focuses on writing mysteries and thrillers featuring characters who are thrown into the deep end of the pool and struggle to just keep their heads above water. His work has been recognized by the Academy Nicholls Fellowship, the Austin Film Festival, ScreenCraft, Cinestory, and the Montreal Independent Film Festival. In a previous life, John created and produced theme park attractions across the globe for a wide variety of audiences. John keeps busy in his spare time with three Dungeons and Dragons campaigns and a seemingly never-ending stack of medieval history books.

Surprising Similarities Between Batman and Hatter Madigan

In the vast realm of fictional characters, two iconic figures stand out for their enigmatic personas and unparalleled skills – Hatter Madigan from The Looking Glass Wars universe and Batman from DC Comics. Both characters share a commitment to justice, distinct styles, and formidable arsenals. In this article, we dive down the rabbit hole into the intricacies of Hatter Madigan’s capabilities, weapons, and magical elements, and then we’ll draw comparisons between the intrepid Milliner and the legendary Dark Knight.

Illustration of Hatter Madigan, left profile and brandishing a blade against the Suit Families logo, by artist Ben Templesmith.
Illustration of Batman on top of a building in Gotham City standing in front of the Bat Signal.

Hatter Madigan’s Mystical Arsenal:
Hatter Madigan, an intimidating figure with a tall and athletic build, dons a captivating ensemble complete with a sentient top hat, versatile trench coat, unique vest, high-tech armor, military-inspired boots, lethal wrist blades, and the complex backpack, known as “The Bug.” Each element of his arsenal is imbued with caterpillar thread, Wonderland magic, and advanced technology, creating a tapestry of unique capabilities.

Top Hat:
Hatter’s iconic top hat serves as more than a mere accessory; it is a semi-sentient sidekick made from Wonderland’s mysterious caterpillar silk. The hat boasts a mesmerizing red bejeweled eye on its “stovepipe,” signifying its sentient nature. It scans terrain, assesses danger, and can even track enemies, analyzing heat signatures, vulnerabilities, and voice recognition to provide Hatter with an overwhelming strategic advantage. With a flick of Hatter’s wrist, the hat flattens into a series of spinning S-shaped blades and is thrown to slice through attacking enemies.

Illustration of Hatter Madigan on the streets of New York throwing his hat by artist Maciej Kuciara.


One of the most unique aspects is the hat’s kinship to its owner. It communicates telepathically with Hatter, establishing a deep bond that goes beyond mere attire. The hat also offers a metal shield, precision aiming, and catching capabilities, showcasing its multifaceted utility in combat scenarios.

But it doesn’t end there. The hat can alter its size, strength, and color, seamlessly adapting to various situations. It is attuned to nature and the laws of the universe, which allows it to maneuver independently when separated from its owner. Further, its reality alteration capabilities, including the projection of illusions to confuse enemies, demonstrate the depth of Wonderland magic woven into its fabric.

Trench Coat:
Hatter’s trench coat, seemingly crafted from a Kevlar-like material, resembles Deckard’s jacket from Blade Runner and is both flexible and durable. It incorporates caterpillar silk, adding magical properties and it’s equipped with slits so blades from Hatter’s backpack can subtly emerge.Vest and Armor:

Vest and Armor:
Hatter’s vest, worn over his armor, features double-breasted Victorian detailing and piping with angled heart emblems. The shiny metal armor inspired by Thor’s armor adds to Hatter’s formidable appearance.

Boots and Wrist Blades
Hatter’s boots seamlessly blend military and equestrian design, showcasing Victorian and magical stitching details. The wrist blades, a departure from typical assassin tools, serve as a warrior’s weapon for parrying and slashing. They can even be used as projectiles over a considerable distance, adding a ranged element to Hatter’s offensive capabilities.

Illustration of Hatter Madigan with "The Bug" backpack deployed on the streets of London by artist Tae Young Choi.

“The Bug”:
The Bug is by far the most complicated part of Hatter’s arsenal. Its extensions, linked together by gears, form arms with various attachments, each reaching a good 4 feet in length. Bringing to mind the machinery of Spider-Man foe Doctor Octopus, the Bug’s arms can retract, bend forward, equip different ends, and unfold with eight points of movement, allowing for versatile combat maneuvers and providing a unique advantage in battle.

It communicates with Hatter and operates symbiotically through imagination, adding an element of wonder to its functionality. The Bug’s arms are complemented by the Arsenal Cube, strapped to Hatter’s back by Jabberwocky hide ‘bladeoliers.’ This cube is a marvel of Wonderland physics, expanding to reveal an infinite interior filled with blades and weapons, following the principles of sacred geometry.

Illustration of Batman wrapped in his cloak on a building in Gotham City.

Hatter Madigan and Batman:
Now that we’ve unraveled the complex components of Hatter Madigan’s arsenal, let’s turn our attention to the Dark Knight of Gotham City. Batman is renowned for his unparalleled detective skills, martial arts prowess, and an arsenal of gadgets.

Detective Skills and Intellect
Both Hatter and Batman share a keen intellect and exceptional detective skills. Batman, known as the “World’s Greatest Detective,” relies on his deductive reasoning to solve crimes and unravel mysteries in Gotham City. Hatter’s telepathic connection with his sentient top hat enhances his situational awareness, allowing him to gather information and make informed decisions.

Combat Skills:
In terms of combat, both characters excel in hand-to-hand combat and strategic planning. Batman’s mastery of various martial arts styles is legendary, allowing him to take on multiple opponents effortlessly. Hatter, with his unique arsenal, exhibits a more theatrical and mystical combat style. The retractable spinning blades, precision aiming, and catching capabilities of the hat, combined with the versatile arms of The Bug, provide Hatter with a dynamic and visually striking approach to combat.

Illustration of Hatter Madigan fighting a monkey against the Suit Families logo by Ben Templesmith.
Illustration of Batman jumping off a motorcycle towards a helicopter above a burning building.

Gadgets and Technology:
While Batman relies heavily on cutting-edge technology and an array of gadgets, Hatter’s arsenal is fueled by Wonderland magic. The hat’s scanning capabilities and reality alteration and the Arsenal Cube’s transcendent properties showcase a magical aspect absent in Batman’s more grounded and technology-driven toolkit.

Stealth and Camouflage:
Both characters are adept at stealth, but Hatter’s top hat takes it a step further with its natural camouflage capabilities. The hat seamlessly blends into its surroundings, allowing Hatter to navigate discreetly, a feature not present in Batman’s typical attire.

Mobility and Transportation:
Batman’s iconic Batmobile and Batcycle are extensions of his mastery of technology and symbols of his ubiquitous presence in Gotham. Hatter, on the other hand, relies on the unique abilities of his sentient hat and The Bug’s arms. The hat can expand into a parachute to help slow one of Hatter’s many falls, while The Bug’s arms can bend and extend, providing Hatter with a distinct advantage in navigating diverse terrains.

Illustration of Batman sitting astride the Batcycle and speaking with a child.

Motivation and Symbolism:
Both characters share a commitment to justice, driven by personal tragedies. Batman’s origin story is rooted in the murder of his parents, inspiring him to become a symbol of hope and justice in Gotham. Hatter’s journey in Wonderland is equally poignant, as he strives to protect Princess Alyss Heart and reclaim Wonderland from the clutches of the Red Queen after she overthrew and murdered Queen Genevieve, whom Hatter was sworn to protect.

Style and Aesthetics:
In terms of style, Batman is often characterized by his brooding demeanor, dark and stealthy costume, and gritty aesthetic. Hatter, on the other hand, embraces a more whimsical and fantastical style, with an almost theatrical flair.


To read any of the Hatter M graphic novels go to our store or Amazon.

What Does Skiing Have to Do With “There’s Something About Mary”?

Almost 30 years ago I was on a chairlift with Dylan Sellers, then an executive at Fox, ascending the slopes overlooking the Sundance Film Festival. I started telling Dylan about a screenplay written by my friends, John Strauss and Ed Decter. It was a comedy about a man who hires a private investigator to find his high school dream girl and it was absolutely hysterical. When we got off the lift Dylan said, “Let’s make this movie.” That movie was There’s Something About Mary

Rereading Christine Dietzel’s piece in Teton Gravity brought back all those wonderful memories of how my skiing career opened a door to the entertainment industry. My success in the skiing world led to work as a stunt skier in films such as “Hotdog! The Movie” and the black comedy “Better Off Dead” starring John Cusack. This led to acting roles and forming relationships with a variety of talented filmmakers. The origins of There’s Something About Mary took place on the slopes (and chairlifts) of Sundance. The thriller I produced, Wicked, garnered rave reviews after its Sundance screening and helped launch the career of our star Julia Stiles. 

Christine’s captivating writing made this an enjoyable rabbit hole to revisit. Read the full piece below or click here for the original version. 

The Wicked Soundtrack is Everything You Want

Cliff Martinez is a luminary in the realm of film composition, renowned for his distinctive and evocative soundscapes that have graced many critically acclaimed films. His work epitomizes innovation and creativity, continually pushing the boundaries of cinematic music. His compositions seamlessly blend electronic elements with traditional orchestration, creating atmospheric and immersive scores that leave an indelible mark on audiences.

Martinez’s collaboration with director Steven Soderbergh has been particularly noteworthy, yielding iconic scores for films such as Sex, Lies, and Videotape, Traffic, Solaris, and Contagion, among others. His ability to capture the essence of a film’s narrative and enhance its emotional impact with music has earned him widespread acclaim and numerous accolades, including several awards and nominations.

"Wicked" composer Cliff Martinez in his studio, working with a guitar, keyboard, and software interface.

His work on Wicked, the twisted psycho thriller starring Julia Stiles in her first lead role, stands as a testament to his ability to craft a score that elevates the atmosphere and intensity of a film. Martinez’s haunting and evocative compositions perfectly complement the dark and twisted narrative, immersing viewers in a world of moral ambiguity and psychological tension. With his trademark blend of electronic and orchestral elements, Martinez creates a sonic landscape that mirrors the inner turmoil and moral decay of the characters, enhancing the film’s suspense and intrigue. His score for Wicked not only heightens the emotional impact of key moments in the movie but also serves as a driving force behind the film’s eerie and foreboding atmosphere, leaving a lasting impression on audiences long after the credits roll.


The soundtrack for Wicked features a wide variety of enthralling and angsty songs from a collection of talented musicians:

“Bad Day” by Juliana Hatfield is a compelling and introspective track that showcases the artist’s ability to blend raw emotion with catchy melodies. The song captivates the audience with its poignant lyrics and infectious guitar hooks. Hatfield’s distinctive vocals convey a sense of vulnerability and frustration as Julia Stiles’ character Ellie grapples with feelings of disillusionment and disappointment. The driving rhythm and dynamic instrumentation underscore the song’s themes of inner turmoil and self-reflection, culminating in a cathartic and memorable musical experience.

“Trippin” by Kittie is a powerful and assertive song that embodies the band’s signature blend of heavy metal and alternative rock. Released on their debut album, Spit, the song immediately grabs listeners’ attention with its intense guitar riffs, thunderous drums, and visceral vocals. Frontwoman Morgan Lander’s commanding delivery adds an extra layer of aggression as she confronts themes of frustration, anger, and defiance. With its blistering energy and uncompromising attitude, “Trippin” serves as an anthem for empowerment and resilience.

“Casualty” by Snake River Conspiracy is a riveting and electrifying track that captivates listeners with its fusion of industrial rock and electronic elements. Released on their debut album, Sonic Jihad, in 2000, the song immediately establishes a dark and intense atmosphere with its pulsating beats, distorted guitars, and haunting synthesizers. Frontwoman Tobey Torres delivers a mesmerizing vocal performance, effortlessly transitioning between sultry whispers and powerful screams, adding depth and emotion to lyrics of disillusionment and defiance. With its infectious energy and thought-provoking lyrics, “Casualty” is a standout in Snake River Conspiracy’s repertoire, showcasing their ability to craft provocative and unforgettable music that pushes the boundaries of conventional rock.

The Cranes, a British alternative rock band, deliver a mesmerizing and ethereal experience with their song “Adoration.” The first single off their 1991 debut album Wings of Joy envelops listeners in a dreamlike soundscape characterized by shimmering guitars, haunting vocals, and atmospheric synths. Alison Shaw’s enchanting voice floats effortlessly over the lush instrumentation, conveying a sense of longing and introspection. With its hypnotic melodies and poetic lyrics, “Adoration” invites listeners into a world of soul-searching emotional depth, leaving a lasting impression with its evocative beauty.

“In the Night,” another standout track by the Cranes, showcases the band’s ability to blend elements of shoegaze and dream pop to create a haunting and immersive sonic experience. Featured on their 1994 album Loved, the song captivates from the opening notes with its swirling guitars and pulsating rhythms. Alison Shaw’s evocative vocals convey a sense of yearning and melancholy, perfectly complementing the track’s reflective lyrics. “In the Night” builds to a crescendo of intensity, pulling listeners deeper into its atmospheric embrace and transfixing them with its emotional resonance.

“Underwater,” the third Cranes’ entry in the Wicked soundtrack, further highlights the band’s talent for crafting atmospheric and emotionally resonant music. With its lush instrumentation and haunting melodies, the song creates a sense of immersion reminiscent of being submerged in a vast and mysterious ocean. “Underwater” transports listeners to a world of introspection and emotional exploration.

“Clown” by Switchblade Symphony is a haunting and evocative track that showcases the band’s unique blend of darkwave, gothic rock, and ethereal wave. Released on their 1995 debut album Serpentine Gallery, the song immediately captivates with its atmospheric synthesizers, driving percussion, and eerie melodies. Lead vocalist Tina Root’s mesmerizing vocals add an extra layer of intensity, as she delivers the song’s enigmatic lyrics with beauty and depth. “Clown” transports listeners to a world of darkness and mystery, where themes of love, loss, and longing intertwine to create a captivating and immersive experience.

“When I Am Queen” and “Rabbiteen” are signature tracks from Jack Off Jill‘s repertoire, known for their provocative lyrics and distinctive blend of punk, industrial, and gothic rock. “When I Am Queen,” featured on their 2000 album Clear Hearts Grey Flowers, unleashes a torrent of raw emotion and biting commentary. Lead vocalist Jessicka delivers powerful and defiant vocals, channeling themes of empowerment and rebellion against societal norms. The song’s dynamic instrumentation, including driving guitars and pounding drums, creates a sense of urgency and intensity, driving home its message of defiance and independence.

In contrast, “Rabbiteen,” delves into darker and more introspective territory. The track surrounds listeners in a brooding atmosphere, characterized by eerie melodies and haunting vocals. Jessicka’s haunting whispers and soaring cries add to the song’s haunting allure, as it explores themes of identity, isolation, and the struggle for self-acceptance. With its mesmerizing blend of gothic aesthetics and punk energy, “Rabbiteen” stands as a testament to Jack Off Jill’s ability to create music that is both thought-provoking and emotionally resonant.

Dusty Springfield’s “The Look of Love” epitomizes timeless elegance and sophistication. Originally written by Burt Bacharach and Hal David for the 1967 James Bond spoof Casino Royale, Springfield’s rendition is nothing short of iconic. With her sultry and emotive vocals, she effortlessly captures the essence of longing and desire expressed in David’s poignant lyrics. Backed by Bacharach’s lush orchestration, Springfield’s cover exudes an irresistible charm and allure. Through her interpretation, Springfield transforms the song into a timeless classic that serves as a testament to her unparalleled talent and enduring legacy in the world of music.

“Busy as a Bee,” as performed by Frenchy, is a lively and infectious track that embodies joy and exuberance. Released as part of Frenchy’s repertoire, the song captivates listeners with its upbeat rhythm, catchy melodies, and playful lyrics. Frenchy’s charismatic vocals shine as they deliver the song’s whimsical verses, painting a vivid picture of a bustling and vibrant world. With its irresistible energy and feel-good vibe, “Busy as a Bee” inspires listeners to embrace life’s challenges with a sense of optimism and determination. Whether it’s the driving beat or the infectious chorus, this track is guaranteed to leave a smile on the faces of all who hear it.

“So Com Voce,” by Rob Garza and Eric Hilton (also known as Thievery Corporation), offers a mesmerizing blend of electronic and world music influences that transport listeners to a tranquil and exotic realm. The song captivates with its dreamy atmosphere, lush instrumentation, and hypnotic rhythms. Sung in Portuguese, the vocals add an extra layer of mystique, inviting listeners to immerse themselves in the song’s rich tapestry of sound. Whether it’s the sultry melodies or the intricate production, “So Com Voce” enchants, showcasing the duo’s talent for crafting genre-defying music that transcends boundaries and captivates the imagination.

“Take My Hand, Precious Lord” by Thomas A. Dorsey is a timeless gospel classic, offering solace and comfort in times of trouble. Composed following the death of his wife and infant son after childbirth, Dorsey’s heartfelt lyrics and soul-stirring melody resonate with a profound sense of faith and resilience. First recorded by gospel singer Mahalia Jackson in 1956, the song has since become an anthem of hope and consolation. With its simple yet powerful message of surrendering to divine guidance and finding strength in faith, “Take My Hand, Precious Lord” continues to inspire and uplift generations, cementing its place as one of the most beloved hymns of all time.

“I Honestly Love You,” performed in the film by the brilliant Linda Hart, is a soulful rendition of Olivia Newton-John‘s classic ballad. Released in 1974, the song quickly became an anthem of unrequited love and longing. Pocket Songs’ interpretation retains the emotional depth of the original, with stirring vocals that tug at the heartstrings. Backed by a tender arrangement of piano and strings, the performance captures the bittersweet essence of the lyrics, evoking a sense of vulnerability and yearning. With its timeless melody and heartfelt delivery, “I Honestly Love You” stands as a poignant reminder of the universal experience of love and loss.

Image of The Blue Hawaiians' 1999 album, "Savage Night," featuring a woman's face superimposed on the exterior of a nightclub against the backdrop of a city.

“Second Time Around,” performed by The Blue Hawaiians, is a heartfelt ballad that resonates with themes of redemption and resilience. With its poignant lyrics and emotive melody, the song tells a story of overcoming adversity and embracing the opportunity for a fresh start. Fontana’s soulful vocals convey a sense of vulnerability and hope, drawing listeners into the emotional journey of self-discovery and growth. Whether it’s the gentle strumming of the acoustic guitar or the soaring strings in the background, “Second Time Around” captivates with sincerity and authenticity.


The songs “Bad Day,” “Adoration,” “In the Night,” “Underwater,” “Clown,” “Rabbiteen,” and “When I Am Queen” explore and share the movie’s themes of introspection and emotional turmoil, perfectly embodied by Julia Stiles’ performance. Whether it’s grappling with feelings of frustration and disillusionment (“Bad Day”), expressing devotion and longing (“Adoration”), delving into darker and more introspective territory (“In the Night,” “Underwater”), or confronting societal norms and personal identity (“Clown,” “Rabbiteen,” “When I Am Queen”), each track dives deep into the complexities of the human experience.

These songs vary in musical style and composition, but they share certain sonic elements that contribute to their artistic impact, such as the use of lush instrumentation. Moreover, the lyrical themes explored in these songs, such as introspection, rebellion, and personal identity, resonate with the angst and disillusionment that characterized much of the 90’s alt music scene. Many of these tracks capture that spirit of the 90s with their emotionally charged lyrics and raw, unfiltered sound.

There is an overall sense of intensity, moodiness, and atmosphere in the songs and score used in Wicked. From haunting melodies and brooding instrumentation to evocative vocals and atmospheric soundscapes, each track creates a distinct mood and vibe that draws the audience into the film’s emotional landscape. Whether it’s the ethereal and dreamlike quality of “Adoration,” the raw and gritty energy of “Bad Day,” or the haunting and introspective nature of “Rabbiteen,” these songs exude a sense of depth, complexity, and emotional authenticity that resonates with audiences on a visceral level.

ALL THINGS ALICE: INTERVIEW WITH GARY MURAKAMI

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Gary Murakami join me! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.


Frank Beddor 
Welcome to the show Gary Murakami. I’m super happy to have you on and we’re here to talk about the love of your life, Liz Cavalier. You guys were together for 30 years. I met Liz shortly thereafter.

I want to have this shared experience with you because, unfortunately, Liz passed away in 2016. She was not only the love of your life, but she was the most inspirational and important creative collaborator and friend that I had here in Los Angeles. She was instrumental in all of these creative endeavors, many of which we would sort out in coffee shops, taking notes, and you would often accompany her and do your own thing while we were talking about story. 

I wanted to start today’s chat based on our lunch a couple of weeks ago. You mentioned that you had a lot to do with Helmet Head Girl Hero. I met Liz through a producer friend and the first thing I read of hers was this script: Helmet Head Girl Hero. It was an amazing script and I just loved the tone and the personality. You said that was her big break. Can you, as a way of introduction, lead us to your meeting Liz and then subsequently your collaboration on that script? 

Gary Murakami 
I met Liz in Santa Monica at a dance and exercise studio. I was taking dance classes. I remember wearing red tights that I had drawn stuff all over. Liz was stretching and exercising and I thought, “She’s really sexy.” But she was married at the time. So we eventually became friends. We hung out pretty much every day, going to cafes and taking trips to places like the Channel Islands. Eventually, her husband got arrested in Pakistan for smuggling heroin. So that ended the relationship. Liz had a really dramatic life. I think she passed more in her life than anyone I’ve ever known.

FB  
I knew this was going to be a good podcast. 

GM 
He was in Pakistan. Eventually, he bribed the police so he got out but she didn’t want to be involved with that. Turns out he was bipolar as well, too. So that was enough of that. But we got together in 90 or 91 or so. She was looking for a story to do. She had gotten some stuff done, but never got it made. 

She told me stories about her life. She was always a precocious child. Really smart. So much so that her parents had difficulty dealing with her because she was also the class clown. Her grandparents told her parents, “Look, she’s just so smart. You guys don’t know what to do with her.” So she was looking for a story and after hearing all the stories of her as a kid I told her I thought she should do her own childhood story. She was so cute. So precocious. She was always climbing trees with binoculars, creating forts, and spying on the neighbors. 

When she was about four, she was annoyed with the neighbors so she wrapped a note for them around a rock and she tried throwing it out the window. But the velocity kept taking the paper off so eventually, she picked up the paper, knocked on the door and gave it to the annoying neighbor. 

So I said that she should write a story about your life because she was so precocious and so cute and there were so many stories about it. She said, “Yeah, but they don’t do leading women or girl heroes.” I responded, “No, sure they do. People want the hero to be somewhat vulnerable so they can rise up and become a hero. They love it. What’s more vulnerable than a little girl or a woman trying to make it in life?” So she did. I never helped her write it but she would always bounce ideas off of me. So that’s how that started.

Author Liz Cavalier wearing a white apron and checkered shirt, posing with her fists raised.
A promotional graphic for the screenplay "Helmet Head Girl Hero" by Liz Cavalier featuring an image of Mary Badham as Scout Finch from the 1962 film "To Kill A Mockingbird".

FB  
The lead character’s name was Beverly. I thought she maybe needed to increase the size of the production. So we came up with this idea that there was a real conspiracy with Russians. So it became “Helmet Head Goes to the Moon”. I was convinced it was a hit movie and we had a lot of traction. 

But then Paramount made Harriet the Spy. That stopped the momentum of Liz’s script. But then I had this other kid’s idea, which was based on this dog in Telluride. It was called Dog Breath, which was funny but I didn’t think it was a big movie title. Then Liz said, “How about Eating Avalanches?” I said, “Okay, now that’s pretty cool. That’s memorable.” We developed this story that took place in Telluride about this dog that would go up the mountain with its owner. It became like a Goonies-style treasure hunt. In Telluride, they had this old mining town that still had all of the shafts and you could go down and tour to see what it was like in the early 1900s. But Liz was so much fun and so creative and she really created a lot of empathy with those characters. We worked on that for so many years. I loved working with her. We would butt heads a lot, though, because I would work from the plot side and she hated working from the plot side, she only wanted to come from the character and the inspirational side. 

But the most significant aspect of us working together was her writing on the Hatter M graphic novel series and all of the wonderful characters she came up with. Where do you think she got this inspiration from? You talked about her as a child being precocious and super smart. She was way ahead of her time in terms of focusing on women characters. That was one of the reasons she didn’t think these movies would get made because they were female-led. Now, almost all of the television and films for a period of time were women-led, which was a nice reversal. Sadly, she wasn’t around to see the transformation, but she came up with some amazing characters – Realm, Shaman of the White Flower Tribe, from graphic novel number three, The Nature of Wonder, or Jet Seer, which is one of her favorite characters. Did she talk about these characters and how they were coming together? 

Illustration of Realm, Shaman of the White Flower Tribe from the graphic novel "Hatter M: The Nature of Wonder" by Frank Beddor and Liz Cavalier.
Illustration of Jet Seer from the graphic novel "Hatter M: Love of Wonder" by Frank Beddor and Liz Cavalier.

GM 
Liz was an assertive person. She was the leader of her gang back in Eaton, New York. She was the class clown and always instigated stuff, like the high school graduation prank. Everyone got in trouble. Liz was a bad liar so she always got caught. She got caught shoplifting because she was such a bad liar. 

All the characters are her. I was reading Zen of Wonder, and they’re all her, Hatter M included. She had that very rational, realistic side but she had the other side where she was just surreal and liked to be inspired by thoughts that came out of nowhere. I always encouraged her to write women leads because my mom was really important in my life. My mom was such a strong person and Liz was the same way. A very strong, capable woman. 

FB  
You’re also a very creative person. You’ve been an artist and you’re an actor. What other things have you done? 

GM
I booked that video job. 

FB
Congratulations! You owe me lunch.

GM
I will pay for lunch. It’s being produced by Tennyson, that huge Chinese company. They’re drawing up the contracts this week. They’ve written me into the cast. I didn’t book any of the two characters I did, but they liked me so much they’re writing me a character. And I may do other characters as well in the project. 

FB 
You and Liz had a really unique relationship. I’d like you to talk about that a little bit but also the creative space that you lived in. I was always struck by the art on the walls, the spontaneity, the affection, and the path less traveled you both took. Both creatively and in terms of how you see the world. The two of you were so in sync and you were so compatible, which doesn’t seem like the most romantic thing, but compatibility is ultimately so romantic. Because when you feel compatible, you feel yourself. And whenever I was in your presence, you both felt like yourselves yet you also felt like one. Is that accurate?

Author Liz Cavalier sitting on a white moped on a tree-lined sidewalk.

GM 
Whenever I went to the restroom if the door was unlocked, Liz had a camera and she’d just bust that door open. There are so many pictures of me on the toilet going, “Liz why do you do that?” She’d say, “Because Gary, that’s the most animated I see you.” When we got our first apartment together, I remember, she would get a bucket of water whenever I went to take a shower. She’d have me screaming. We’d be laughing so much. At one point the neighbors were like, “Shut up!”

FB  
I love doing this podcast because you don’t normally get stories like that in life. Those are very, very funny. She was such a practical jokester.

GM 
Constantly. It was almost too much. You know how much Liz liked to talk.

FB  
Would you say that you’re super chatty or not?

GM 
Not at the time. But when she passed away, I missed all that chatter so I decided to become more chatty. 

FB 
With The Looking Glass Wars, the idea behind it is that it’s the true story of how Alice came to our world and Lewis Carroll got the story wrong. So Liz wanted to create the Hatter M Institute for Paranormal Travel, which was a group of people who got together to discover the secrets of Hatter’s 13-year travels in our world and she never wanted to break that fourth wall. Whenever we went to Comic-Cons or schools, or did any interviews, it was, “This happened. We’re sticking to it. This is the real story.” She was so committed to it and it was so much fun to watch her pontificate on the work that they’ve been doing or the secret missions they were going on when we would do Comic-Cons. Did she talk about the conception of that? 

GM 
Wonderland is real to Liz. That idea that Wonderland is real, or the realm of imagination is the fourth dimension comes from Edgar Cayce, who was a clairvoyant and psychic in the early 1900s. There’s a whole foundation based on him, the Association for Research and Enlightenment. He said that all ideas, all imaginations, are in this fourth dimension, and anything on Earth is imagined there first, and then it’s here. The original, which is in the other dimension, is much more vivid. She took that seriously. When I read Hatter and all the characters, I see her philosophy, because she always wanted to start a religion.

FB  
That does not surprise me. After the success of Scientology, she was probably thinking, “Yeah, I can do better.”

GM 
She took those ideas about imagination really seriously. That’s what our conversations were most of the time. They weren’t based in reality. It was, “What if?” and “Maybe this.” So we would go investigate in the Desert Hot Springs and look for clues and stuff like that. We’d play k.d. lang and Sergio Leone tapes in the car while we were cruising around the desert.

FB 
You guys did a lot of exploring off the beaten track. She was often feeding her imagination and I think it’s so important as a writer, to be very open to receive. I remember her saying one time that ideas are everywhere. They’re just all around you. As long as you go out into the world and explore, you will find ideas. You’ll be inspired. You’ll be touched. She lived that life with you.

GM 
She did. Liz told me if she were a man, she would have wanted to be a Merchant Marine so she could explore the world. She really meant that. 

FB 
She did a lot in her imagination as well. 

GM 
Physically as well, too, though. Liz was able to take care of herself as well. She had the strongest punch of any woman I’ve ever felt. Not that she punched me in the face, she punched my hands and stuff. She had great torque in her body. She never wanted to be the kind of writer who was just kind of anemic-looking just typing away. She wanted to experience things. She wanted to be capable out in the world as well. She always tested herself, riding the metro by herself or just driving by herself. Just the challenge of yourself out in the world. I think she put it into her writing as well through the kinds of characters that she admired.

FB  
She was so well-read. She would introduce me to writers that I had no idea of. I think it was out of that the Wonderland portal idea emerged because she was interested in pop culture but she was interested in pop culture through a unique lens. That Wonderland portal was her baby. She was in charge of the content and she would pull all the content from pop culture and then write whatever she wanted to write. It always seemed to be catching the zeitgeist of what was next.

GM 
Liz always wanted to be ahead. She had the spirit of a pioneer. She just wanted to be ahead and if you wanted to join, great. If you didn’t, that’s fine, “See you later.”

A group of four female Army Air Force pilots walking towards camera with a B-17 Flying Fortress in the background taken in 1944.

FB  
That’s why she loved that World War II story about the WASPs, the Women Airforce Service Pilots. She came up with Sis Kipling as a character, who had all the agency in the world, all the ability to fly a plane better than the men. Held back by society but damn determined to bust out and to make a difference. I see how much of herself was in the characters she created. That’s where the best writing comes from. When you put yourself out there, people feel it, then it comes off the page the way it’s meant to come off the page. 

She was terrific. I really miss her deeply. The conversations, the back and forth, and the little Christmas presents that would show up in my inbox. She was funny at Comic-Cons. I’m very outgoing and I’m sticking my hand out, stepping in front of people, and waving them over to the booth. But when Liz started talking to people, they would lean in and she would engage them on a deeper level. I was giving them the elevator pitch and she was giving them the reason they should really care. It was really impressive to watch, her passion for the inside game of what the graphic novel was about, or a character she introduced or invented. I also miss getting her perspective on things.

GM 
When she was ill, her friends had come from New York to help out the last two weeks. They were more in grief before she passed away and she was actually trying to cheer them up and help them. And I thought, “Why does Liz have to do this?” But she was good at that stuff. I never saw that side of her before that time.

FB
She was really nurturing, especially in the creative sense. “Let’s all come together. Let’s deal with this. I think I have a solution. I think I have a point of view. This is going well, let me take that off your plate.” She was incredibly giving like that. But the longest lasting really comes down to the work and the five graphic novels. If you read those graphic novels and look at the back matter and think about other comic books, you will see an enormous talent in Liz. She came up with almost all of that back matter. All of it was important to her to contextualize these ideas in the book, but to contextualize Wonderland, the power of imagination, these characters and where they came from, and then the fun. I want to lean into how much fun and how comedic she could be.

GM 
I read her graphic novels and I said, “You got that comedic rhythm.” She said, “Really?” She had no training in that at all. It was natural to her, in both writing and in life. She just had that rhythm and timing.

FB 
You write you write from being, which is exactly what she did.

GM 
That’s why Helmet-Head was so successful. It was her.

FB  
That’s still an amazing piece of work. I was thinking about how I could turn that screenplay into a book. 

GM
We read that several years later and we were both so shocked that she didn’t realize it contained a lot of the things between her and her parents when she was a little girl. She exposed a lot of things. She had no idea she wrote that stuff. She really didn’t. It’s like, she subconsciously put it down on paper.

FB 
I have a lot of different drafts as well, but I think it would make a great book. Tsunami Surf Sisters is going to make a great graphic novel, which we at Automattic are in the middle of creating and expanding. We’ve been really inspired because it seems so perfectly timed now. She was really ahead of her time. Tsunami Surf Sisters is about a bunch of female surfers who are interested in what’s happening to the oceans. So it has an environmental slant to it. If there was a relevant time, I think now is as good as any. We’ve been working on it as a graphic novel and certainly want to honor Liz’s contribution. 

I’m also keen on Sis Kipling as a graphic novel as well. Liz and I learned a lot of television and movie projects stall out whereas writing books and graphic novels, you have the full experience of creating something, publishing it, and then taking it out to the audience. It feels no different than my movie, There’s Something About Mary, than going into a Comic-Con and selling a copy of Zen of Wonder, and having the readers come back and say, “When’s the next one coming out?” 

How much interest did Liz have in writing novels? 

GM 
I remember her saying that full-on novels are just too much work and take too much time. She likes short, fast, funny things that had a point.

FB 
That’s why she liked scripts and graphic novels because you can write those relatively quickly. They’re dynamic in the creation and they’re collaborative, which was perfect for her because she was so outgoing. We did all of our best work in coffee shops just sitting there talking.

GM 
I remember so many of them.

FB  
What was Liz’s or your introduction to Alice in Wonderland? Did that subject come up much in your life together?

GM
It was a constant thing. Alice was such a big part of our lives. But in reading the characters she wrote, each one is a part of her. They seem to be living, like dream symbols. Nekko was the Zen part. Alan Watts was a Zen advocate and also Eckhart Tolle, who is huge now, (as you said, she was always ahead of her time). He wrote The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment, which is basically mindfulness and being present.

Illustration of Nekko from the graphic novel "Hatter M: Zen of Wonder" by Frank Beddor and Liz Cavalier.

FB  
That’s absolutely true. I remember she introduced me to Alan Watts. Nekko was the Zen guide for Hatter in book four, Zen of Wonder. She also created Little Dick, who was also in book four. 

GM 
And Mr. Murakami, where Hatter said, “The crapper?!” Thanks, Liz.

FB 
That’s very funny. Really relevant given where this conversation started her taking pictures on the crapper. Now we know an inside joke that I did not know about.

GM 
This is actually a dream from last night, I was in bed and she was poking me in the bed and I heard her laughing. Then the last thing was you and I were walking in Santa Monica on Fourth Street and we got to the overpass over Ocean Avenue. You said stop, “You’re ready there and you’re gonna take photos.” I said, “Okay, Frank. I like this like that.” And you gave me some little toy butterflies to pose. I couldn’t hear you because when I said “Frank, you didn’t finish your sentence!”

FB 
She talked a lot about dreams. She talked about mindfulness a lot. 

GM 
She was very much into it. She was taking cold showers back then. Which is really big now in all the longevity stuff. She used to take cold showers in the morning and she would pound her chest.

FB  
As I said, way ahead of her time. What was her first introduction to the classic Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland?

GM 
I’m sure it was in school but she never really talked about that much. She got into Alice only when she started collaborating with you and she started expanding. I think she wanted to update it. Add more to it. 

Author Liz Cavalier holding a pink and grey guide map with a bottle of Sapporo beer in the foreground.

FB 
Suddenly, we both became really aware of Alice and pop culture. “Did you hear that band has an Alice song?” Or she would send me a piece of art from a garden where the plants were Alice-themed or cut out.

GM 
I think she felt that the film and story were going to become not so literal and not so black and white, because I think I really believe people can understand metaphor now. Or accept gray areas, whereas before it had to be this way or that way. I really feel that Liz felt that everything was going toward where one symbol would mean many things. It wasn’t just one thing and there were many gray areas. In a way, everything’s become surreal. It’s almost unbelievable.

FB  
If you’ve just reread Zen of Wonder you can see she really communicates that successfully.

GM 
She does. She didn’t respect the powers that be, the elite. She felt that an individual had their own power and they could do whatever to make a difference. 

FB  
Do you remember she came up with a character for Whoopi Goldberg, the Queen of Clubs? The Queen of Clubs is best friends with Redd except she doesn’t believe in Redd’s ruling theories so she’s working behind the scenes. Then Redd finds out and it’s no good deed goes unpunished, off with the head. Liz would laugh and say, “Whoopi’ gonna die.” Then I had to tell Whoopi that on The View. It turns out that Whoopi Goldberg is a huge Alice fan and was in the TV movie. She narrates the Alice in Wonderland statues in Central Park in New York. 

The Queen of Clubs, inspired by Whoopi Goldberg, from the graphic novel "Hatter M: Love of Wonder" by Frank Beddor and Liz Cavalier.

FB 
The outpouring of support from her friends who reached out to me when we all got the news that her illness was terminal, which is a really hard moment in life to contemplate. She often shared with me some of the pain she was in and in doing that, I felt like I was a little bit on the journey with her. Because I know she was really private. And she didn’t, but we had

GM
Most of her friends didn’t know. She didn’t want to tell anybody.

FB  
Why do you think that is?

GM 
She was so into organic food and cold showers. She said part of it was that she was embarrassed. With doing all that, that happened.

FB 
She described this growth that was in her stomach as this kind of alien. In the end, she just wanted it to get out and move on. I just thought she was incredibly brave and it really revealed, yet again, another side of her courage and her sentiment because she didn’t seem that afraid. Even though she was taken young, she prepared herself. She used to tell me, “Check in on Gary.”

GM 
She was always concerned about me because I was not worldly at all back in those days. I became so after Liz left because I had to. 

FB  
Thirty years is a long stretch with one person. It was a really great, successful run.

Author Liz Cavalier cooking wearing a white apron and blue turtleneck.

GM 
She lived a very full life. Maybe two or three lifetimes full and I told her so. She knew it. She did not die perfectly preserved. She was worn out because she did so much. That’s the way to live. 

If you just look at you and your family, the Beddors, you guys race cars, you’re flipping in the air off of ski jumps and risking your life or being paralyzed. You guys weren’t trying to stay perfectly preserved. You had the Sin Bin and, sorry about the Sin Bin, maybe your friends don’t want to hear about that. Your mom was the fastest car driver in her age group. She beat your father who was a big, wheeling dealing business guy. You guys live fast and full.

FB  
Thank you for that. The Sin Bin isn’t a big deal other than for my mom. I had moved out to Salt Lake City and was on the U.S. Ski Team. I had made a little bit of money and I bought a condominium. Very modest, but I bought a condominium and I called my mom and told her and for whatever reason, my mom associated that with a “Sin Bin” as she called it. “I don’t know what you’re doing living in a Sin Bin.” Somehow, condominiums were different from houses or apartments. I guess she had seen too many teen or college movies. I teased her relentlessly her entire life about the Sin Bin.

GM 
I’m sure it was squeaky clean.

FB 
It was far from squeaky clean. Squeaky maybe. Having a full life is what we all hoped for and Liz did. She made my life so much more exciting and richer. I really learned how to collaborate and communicate with somebody on both the creative side and the friendship side because, after 28 years, you’re gonna have your differences and you have to sort those things out. I’ve been lucky that I have a lot of long-term friendships and I attribute that to taking responsibility for my part of differences and being able to express that. She was equally good at that, which makes for a good friendship.

GM 
I related to a lot of the messages from Nekko to Hatter because Liz told me that she always saw me as Hatter. Not that I’m trying to get myself into your movie.

FB  
You’d be a good Hatter. 

Cover illustration by artist Vincent Proce for the graphic novel "Zen of Wonder" by Frank Beddor and Liz Cavalier.

GM 
Nekko’s messages to Hatter were, “Don’t be so rational. You gotta be open. Gotta be in the moment. Gotta be spontaneous.” Liz even got me to take an improv class. I’ve had many dreams since reading Zen of Wonder. I think one of the reasons she wrote Zen was to provoke insightful dreams in the readers, because all the characters are so surreal. 

FB  
She had all those Japanese demons which I didn’t realize there were so many.

GM 
For everything.

FB  
I thought Catholicism was scary.

GM 
Catholicism is scary.

FB  
You drew some characters for Liz and me for one of the graphic novels. You drew a Milliner, I believe.

Illustration of a Japanese soldier holding a spear, standing next to a stone castle tower, by artist Gary Murakami.
Illustration of a Japanese soldier holding a sword and wearing a shield on his back by artist Gary Murakami.

GM 
Yes, a Milliner. Sarah, your producer, sent them to me. I don’t wanna brag, but I was surprised by how good they were. They’re very flowing. 

FB  
They’re really good.

GM 
I mainly drew them for Liz because I think she always wanted me to be a visual artist. When I was young, that’s what they said I should be. I told everyone I was gonna become a graphic artist. I didn’t know what it was but it sounded really good and adults approved of it. “I’m gonna be a graphic artist. I’m gonna go to art school.” I was in line to do it until some other grade school kid’s mom called my mom and asked, “Which art school is Gary going to because I want to send my daughter?” My mom said, “What are you talking about?” But yeah, I left it for Liz to show you. She was encouraging me to do that. I like him. I was surprised.

FB  
I’ve gone back and looked at a lot of different artists and I’ve been surprised in terms of the different styles and what people have been able to produce in the world of Wonderland.

GM 
Originally, I guess Hatter was supposed to be bigger and bulkier like a bodybuilder. But I remember telling Liz, “No, I think you should be because of his skills, more like Bruce Lee.” More like a swimmer with a more athletic build and able to move quickly and all that just popped up. 

Still image of actor and martial artist Bruce Lee from the 1973 film "Enter the Dragon".

FB 
That was a really good choice. I think Bruce Lee is the perfect prototype for Hatter, a stranger in a strange land with a remarkable set of skills that many people underestimate. You get the satisfaction of the comeuppance for the know-it-alls or the baddies who think they can take anybody.

GM 
No matter what Tarantino says, Brad Pitt cannot beat Bruce Lee. 

FB  
That’s for sure. I’m going to keep you posted on the creative material that we’re trying to birth into the world that Liz was a part of, whether that’s Tsunami Surf Sisters, Sis Kipling, or Helmet Head. I was even thinking Eating Avalanches might make a nice nostalgic adventure story. So we keep her memory and her work alive.

I’m going to take the graphic novels and repackage them. I think as we move forward in terms of getting a TV show or a musical going, there’s going to be a resurgence in interest in reading the graphic novels. 

GM 
I’ll be going to Peru from the 14th to the 25th and apparently, there’s an underground city underneath Manta Picchu. I’m hoping to bribe somebody like $1,500 or something to get under there. We have a shaman, Don Juan, who’s going to be leading some meditation so maybe he can get me into that underground city and I’ll report to the Hatter Institute.

FB  
For any Hatter sightings or exotic artifacts, you might discover.

If you were a character from Alice in Wonderland, either my book or from Lewis Carroll’s book, would you think you’re Hatter Madigan, as Liz suggested? Or do you have another idea?

GM 
That or the free ghost Mr. Murakami, from the outhouse.

FB 
Okay, the character that you already are. All right, good. Thank you, Gary. Thanks for going down memory lane with me about one of the most important people in both of our lives, Liz Cavalier.

GM
Yes, long live Liz. Thanks, Frank.

FB
Long live my queen. Take care, buddy.


For the latest updates & news about All Things Alice,  please read our blog and subscribe to our podcast!

Poor Things: Is Alice in Wonderland at the Oscars?

Seventy-two years ago, Disney’s animated Alice in Wonderland walked away from the twenty-fourth Academy Awards empty-handed after composer Oliver Wallace lost to Johnny Green and Saul Chaplin (An American in Paris) for what was then called Best Scoring of a Musical Picture. In 2011 Tim Burton’s Alice adaptation took home statuettes for Best Art Direction (Robert Stromberg and Karen O’Hara) and Best Costume Design (Colleen Atwood) having also scored a nomination for Best Visual Effects. This Sunday, Alice will again be attending the Oscars. But in true Wonderland fashion, she’ll be in disguise as Emma Stone’s intrepid heroine Bella Baxter from Yorgos Lanthimos’ surreal masterpiece, Poor Things. Widely regarded as one of best films of the years, Poor Things is nominated for 11 Academy Awards (Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Actress) and has already won five BAFTAs and two Golden Globes amongst a host of other awards. While the film is not an Alice adaptation, nor does it reference Lewis Carroll’s novel, but Lanthimos’ construction of the world of Poor Things and Bella’s character arc are classic Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, an odyssey of self-discovery through a strange yet beautiful world. 

Poor Things begins as Bella Baxter ends (the first time). The eccentric (some might say mad) doctor and scientist Godwin Baxter (the sublime Willem Defoe) saves Bella’s life by transplanting the still-living brain of her unborn fetus after jumping off a bridge. As a result, Bella begins the film with the intellectual and emotional maturity of an infant. She rapidly matures, however, transitioning to a teenage mindset throughout the first act, discovering sexual pleasure and masturbation. Her world continues to broaden when she meets Max McCandles (Ramy Youssef), her father’s assistant. McCandles swiftly falls for Bella and she accepts his marriage proposal. But Bella’s curiosity for the outside world and thirst for sexual exploration leads her to run off with her father’s debauched, scoundrel of lawyer, Duncan Wedderburn (the delightfully outrageous Mark Ruffalo). What follows is a coming-of-age epic equal parts sensual, troubling, and enlightening. 

Still image of Emma Stone as Bella Baxter with a glass bubble over her head from Yorgos Lanthimos' "Poor Things".

So what does this have to do with Alice in Wonderland? Well, it can (and will) be argued that Bella is an Alice avatar, that Poor Things is an adult version of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. Alice’s journey is one of self-discovery, in which her journey through a strange, seemingly arbitrary world informs how she defines herself. When the Caterpillar asks Alice who she is, Alice replies, “I-I hardly know, Sir, just at present – at least I know who I was when I got up this morning, but I think I must have changed several times since then.”

Alice feeling like she has gone through rapid change mirrors Bella’s arc over the course of Poor Things. Bella rushes through her emotional development, going from an infant to an emotional mature adult in the span of about a year. Just as Alice feels anxious about her sudden changes, Bella also experiences intense shock at certain points throughout her journey. One pivotal experience comes when the cruise ship on which Bella and Duncan are traveling stops at Alexandria, Egypt. Bella disembarks and is horrified to witness the intense suffering of the city’s indigent. 

Still image of sandstone tower in Alexandria from Yorgos Lanthimos' "Poor Things".

Prior to this experience, Bella had been sheltered. Whether confined to the twisted yet familiar environs of Godwin’s home or ensconced in the variety of sensual pleasures offered by Libson hotels and Mediterranean cruise ships during her galavanting with Duncan, Bella had never experienced, much less seen, true suffering. This revelation is devastating and causes Bella to experience an existential crisis, questioning everything she’d ever been told. Her distress and inexperience with the “real world” leads her to make the impulsive decision to give the ship’s crew Duncan’s money, who falsely promise to use it to support the poor of Alexandria. This has disastrous consequences on Bella and Duncan, leaving them penniless and stranded in Marseille. Yet the experience causes Bella to grow, giving her a more realistic view of people and morality. 

One of the common beliefs about Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland is that it is a pure nonsense tale in which Alice breezes from one surreal episode to the next until she wakes up back in Oxford, her odyssey in Wonderland ostensibly just a dream. Yet Alice does undergo a change throughout her story. At the Knave of Hearts’ trial, Alice becomes more confident in herself, criticizing the arbitrary nature of the inquest and standing up for herself in front of the Queen of Hearts. Alice’s experiences in Wonderland did change her. Alice needed to be independent and think for herself in order to navigate that wild world and those lessons prepared her to confront the tyrannical Queen at the end of the story. 

Still image of Emma Stone as Bella Baxter in a white dress from Yorgos Lanthimos' "Poor Things".

Similarly, Bella’s experiences with Duncan, in Alexandria, and in her time as a sex worker in Marseille prepared her to confront her ex-husband, the sadistic General Alfie Blessington. Blessington was the reason for Bella’s suicide in her previous life, his cruelty and controlling nature driving her to jump into the Thames rather than let her and her child suffer under his tyranny. But by the end of the film Bella has developed a strong sense of her own independence and competency, leading her to exact revenge on her former tormentor. It is a powerful moment, showing how the lessons imparted struggle can lead to triumph. 

The world’s of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and Poor Things also perform similar functions in relation to their protagonists. With both stories initially set in Victorian England, their secondary worlds provide a juxtaposition of customs and rules to the protagonists’ primary worlds. Carroll’s Wonderland is a surreal dreamworld characterized by non-existent rules and ever-changing properties. It is designed to confuse and frustrate Alice’s preconceived notions. Lanthimos’ world is not a fictional realm, it is a twisted version of our world, yet operates as Wonderland due to Bella’s unfamiliarity. The fantastical steampunk aesthetic reflects Bella’s point of view as she moves through a world filled with strange customs and confusing behavior. Both Alice and Bella have unreliable guides. Alice’s include the White Rabbit, the Caterpillar, and Cheshire Cat, while Bella must navigate the ulterior motives of Duncan and Madame Swiney in order to extract value from their examples. For both characters, their “Wonderlands” function as teachers, interacting with them so they can grow and change. 

Still image of Lisbon buildings from Yorgos Lanthimos' "Poor Things".

While not overtly influenced by Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, Poor Things’ narrative and protagonist certainly share Alice-ean functions and characteristics. Bella’s odyssey of self-discovery through Yorgos Lanthimos’ beautifully crafted world thematically mirrors Alice’s own journey through Wonderland, with both experiences inspiring the characters to grow, becoming more self-confident and self-assured than their former selves. Alice may not be on stage this Sunday at the Dolby Theatre nor may she be thanked if Poor Things captures any gold statuettes, but, nevertheless, the film owes a debt to the type of fantastical coming-of-age story that Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland helped popularize.


An itinerant storyteller, John Drain attended the University of Edinburgh before studying film at DePaul University in Chicago and later earned an MFA in Screenwriting from the American Film Institute Conservatory. John focuses on writing mysteries and thrillers featuring characters who are thrown into the deep end of the pool and struggle to just keep their heads above water. His work has been recognized by the Academy Nicholls Fellowship, the Austin Film Festival, ScreenCraft, Cinestory, and the Montreal Independent Film Festival. In a previous life, John created and produced theme park attractions across the globe for a wide variety of audiences. John keeps busy in his spare time with three Dungeons and Dragons campaigns and a seemingly never-ending stack of medieval history books.

Wicked Trailers Breakdown: Why Hollywood Is Hiding Musicals

The Super Bowl happened this month and everyone was really chill about it and no one freaked out over the deep state rigging the game due to Taylor Swift dating the winning team’s quarterback. For those non-Americans or those who are unaware, this was sarcasm. As someone who does not have many strong opinions about football, February 11th was just my birthday. Usually, in America, people who don’t like football but are in a situation where they have to watch the Super Bowl annoy those around them by verbally ranking the advertisements that play between the game to anyone unfortunate enough to be around them. If you couldn’t tell, I also don’t care for the ads. I will explain why I don’t like the ads but I have to warn you, this opinion that I have sounds like something the most annoying person on Instagram would post. Okay, warning over. The reason I don’t like the ads is I’m not interested in watching soulless companies with the ability to afford advertising space during the Super Bowl trying their hardest to be “trendy’ and “relatable” in a desperate effort to take money from us.

If you’ve made it this far, you’re probably wondering to yourself, “Why are we talking about any of this I’m here to get my Alice fix?” Well, today, we’re actually going to be talking about something that does relate to Alice, but not an Alice-related topic. Just hear me out. Today, we are going to be talking about the Wicked movie trailers. It’s not just the Wicked movie that is coming out later this year. No, we are also going to be talking about Wicked, the 1998 movie that Frank Beddor produced and starring Julia Stiles.

Let’s dive into the new Wicked trailer that premiered during the Super Bowl. The adaptation of the iconic musical was directed by Jon M. Chu, and apparently, is going to be slightly different from the original story. What that means, I don’t know. I wanted to give a brief synopsis of the trailer but all I could gather is the cast is quite star-studded, to say the least. I have tailored the cast down to those that I know of because it’s a pretty big cast. The cast includes; Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba, Ariana Grande as Galinda, Jeff Goldblum as the Wizard, Michelle Yeoh as Madame Morrible, and Ethan Slater, who you might know as that SpongeBob guy who’s dating Ariana Grande, as Boq. It’s safe to say that there is some real star power in this film. As someone who saw Wicked the musical many years ago and remembers very little from it, the trailer did not do much to jog my memory. It does not reveal much of the story if anything at all. That’s not a criticism, by the way. I personally prefer trailers not to give me much information besides who is in it, the genre, and the tone. But, I don’t really know what type of movie this is. I mean, I have an idea because I’ve seen the Wicked musical and remember something about defying gravity but if I was someone who knew nothing about Wicked or The Wizard of Oz, I didn’t really gain anything from the trailer.

Okay, now let’s talk about the trailer for the Wicked movie starring Julia Stiles. It starts with a man being questioned by the police about his wife’s murder. Then, the classic 90’s movie trailer narrator comes in with that classic 90’s movie trailer narrator voice. The information that I could gather from the trailer was that a woman was murdered in her gated community in suburbia, her husband is the prime suspect, a suspicious neighbor gives an attitude to the police, and the daughter, played by Julia Stiles, behaves in a way that leads me to believe she knows more about the murder than she lets on. Look, it had me at the 90’s movie trailer voice. This trailer led me to believe that the story is going to be full of twists and turns and will be a rollercoaster till the end. After watching the film, I was right. Great job trailer!

There is an interesting trend among films as of late that I find incredibly annoying – not telling people what a movie is. For those who know, Wicked is a Broadway musical. That is to say, people are going to sing. With that knowledge, it would be safe to assume that the 2024 Wicked movie would then be a musical as well. And you would assume correctly. But, the trailer does not allude to this fact, in any way whatsoever. Why? This isn’t the first time a musical has been marketed this way. Look at Timothee Chalamet’s Wonka movie that just came out. Apparently, that was a musical too. Nowhere in the trailer was this hinted at. The Mean Girls movie that also just came out was a musical. Why wasn’t this mentioned anywhere in the marketing? I know I made a joke about the song, “Defying Gravity” earlier but if that’s the only song I remember from the musical it must mean it’s a popular song. There wasn’t even a nod to the song in the Wicked movie trailer.

I have a theory as to why studios do this. My guess at the reasoning for hiding a film being a musical is that the West Side Story remake by Stephen Spielberg was a box office flop. If a Stephen Spielberg film flops, that’s a pretty big deal. He’s literally known for making blockbusters. But, when West Side Story, a STEPHEN SPIELBERG film, flopped, the executives, with all their genius, must have concluded that it flopped because people don’t like musicals. This is a weird conclusion because there is a street in New York, Broadway, which is entirely dedicated to musicals. Along with Broadway, there are many other streets where less popular musicals play which are called, “off-Broadway musicals.” If you haven’t guessed it, I disagree with the notion that people don’t like musicals. I think West Side Story flopped because people didn’t want to see a remake of an already good movie. There have been a couple more musical flops that probably scared executives into not marketing musicals as such. Lin-Manuel Miranda’s In the Heights was a flop, as well as the Dear Evan Hansen adaptation that came out in 2021. I have an idea as to why these movies flopped though. I didn’t see a single ad for In the Heights. How am I supposed to know a movie came out if I don’t know a movie exists? As for Dear Evan Hansen, that movie flopped because it wasn’t good. The Dear Evan Hansen musical is fine but watching a then 28-year-old Ben Platt be a high school sophomore with a perm was tough to get through.

Still image of Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba and Ariana Grande as Galinda from the 2024 Universal Pictures film "Wicked".

Due to this information about movies hiding the fact that they are musicals, when I sat down to watch Wicked, the movie starring Julia Stiles, I wondered to myself how far back this practice went. Apparently, it started sometime in the 2000’s because it was not a musical. Or maybe Frank had met with the Oracle of Delphi and foresaw musicals flopping and axed the idea before it could happen. This isn’t the only thing the trailer for Wicked, the adaptation of the musical, hid from people, it’s double dipping. The other thing this trailer hid from the audience is that it’s part 1 of 2. Perhaps, that’s why I wasn’t able to glean much information from the trailer since the movie is just set up with no real ending until the second part is released. This is something that many films have recently been doing. The most recent Spider-Verse film hid this fact from its audience.

Let me tell you, I do not like this practice at all. If I go to a movie, I want to see a beginning, middle, and end. I don’t want to see just the beginning and the first half of the middle. I do get why studios hide this from the audience though. If you also agree with me on not liking this, you probably wouldn’t have seen the second Spider-Verse film until the third one came out, then probably watched part one on streaming. Studios would rather you go to the theater. But, you know how they can ensure that movie fans go to theaters? By just making a complete movie! The new Horizon: An American Saga, starring Kevin Costner, at least, has the decency to put on the posters that it’s broken up into chapters. But, it still makes me wonder, why are movies turning into TV shows?

Still image of Julia Stiles as Ellie Christianson, Vanessa Zima as Inger Christianson, and William R. Moses as Ben Christianson from the 1998 mystery thriller film "Wicked".

Wicked, the movie starring Julia Stiles, was a complete movie… Well, now that I think about it, while the story does come to its full conclusion, the ending does leave an open door for a part two. This might be the reason why Frank is having me write this article, to begin with. What if this was all a ploy to market the second part of a movie that came out 26 years ago? Maybe he pitched the idea to Julia Stiles who will be reprising her role as the mother. This isn’t me pretending to not know what is going on while saying what is going on. I’m legitimately just spitballing here. I’m completely in the dark. Just like the people who have seen the Wicked musical movie trailer.

Look, I know fans of Wicked the musical are a proud bunch. Believe me, I dated one when I was younger. I try not to criticize movies before they come out. For all I know, it could be awesome. What I am criticizing is the execution of the trailer and comparing it to the trailer of a movie that shares the same name that happens to have been produced by my boss. The trailer for Wicked starring Julia Stiles, was the better trailer. I’m not saying that because I have to, Frank gives me a lot (maybe too much) of freedom on these blog posts. I’m saying this because it’s my objective truth. You’re allowed to disagree. Is the trailer dated? Of course, that’s what happens when time passes. But, it gave me just enough information without spoiling anything to get me interested enough to actually watch the film. Whereas the trailer for Wicked the movie is coasting on the fact that it is a retelling of an incredibly popular musical and the cast is full of star power. And for me, that isn’t enough to get me interested. Wow, I’m now realizing that because I wrote this, I am the annoying person who gave a long-winded review of a Super Bowl commercial. Frank turned me into what I made fun of… Now that is truly wicked.


Meet the Author:

Jared Hoffman Headshot

Jared Hoffman graduated from the American Film Institute with a degree in screenwriting. A Los Angeles native, his brand of comedy is satire stemming from the many different personalities and egos he has encountered throughout his life. As a lover of all things comedy, Jared is always working out new material and trying to make those around him laugh. His therapist claims this is a coping mechanism, but what does she know?

BATTLE OF THE IPS: ALICE IN WONDERLAND VS. DUNE

Welcome back to the Alice-dome! The blog post where I throw a helpless IP into the fighting pit to see if it has what it takes to stand up against the bone-crushing giant that is our beloved Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. So far, there have been no survivors. That is to say that Alice always wins. Perhaps this is due to its enduring qualities, perhaps the reason it always wins is because it truly is the best, or perhaps it is undefeated because the ref of this competition (Me) is paid to write these blogs about Alice in Wonderland on an Alice in Wonderland website. We’ve had our top scientists trying to figure out why it always wins, but we will never truly know. Anyway, today’s contender is Dune, the science fiction classic authored by Frank Herbert. That’s right, it’s Jabberwock vs Sandworm, tea vs the Spice, Timothee Chalamet vs… I don’t know, Johnny Depp’s Mad Hatter? The categories that will be used to find the victor will range from worldwide cultural impact to whatever else I feel could be interesting. So, sit back, relax, and watch the fight.

Still image of Mia Wasikowska as Alice Kingsleigh, wearing a blue dress, in the 2010 Tim Burton film "Alice in Wonderland".
Promotional image of Timothee Chalamet as Paul Atreides, wearing a black clothes and standing in a desert, from the 2021 Denis Villeneuve film "Dune".

Worldwide Cultural Impact:

In this first round of our showdown, we’ll examine the global impact of these two extraordinary franchises. Both have earned their places in the hearts of audiences worldwide, but they do so in distinct ways.

Verdict: Alice’s Adventures in WonderlandDune’s influence on the science fiction genre and its intricate world-building makes it a strong contender but there is no beating Lewis Carrol’s masterpiece here. Dune might have influenced science fiction but Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland has influenced everything else.

Illustration of the Queen of Hearts dragging Alice across a chessboard landscape under the watchful eye of two rooks from artist Ralph Steadman's illustration of "Alice in Wonderland".

Critical Appeal:

In this category, let’s delve into the critical responses to Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and Dune.

Verdict: Tie – With the invention of Yelp, everybody can truly be a critic. Unfortunately, I don’t read Yelp reviews. Both books were critical successes. A tie might be boring but this one is based on people’s opinions so it’s not that easy to score.

Still image of Timothee Chalamet as Paul Atreides, Rebecca Ferguson as Lady Jessica, Zendaya as Chani, and Javier Bardem as Stilgar from the 2021 Denis Villeneuve film "Dune".

Influences on Language:

Now, let’s talk about language. Both franchises have left linguistic marks with unique phrases and terminology.

Verdict: Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland – In terms of linguistic impact, it’s a no-brainer that Alice is the winner here. Listen, I’ve literally written a blog about how Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland is such a massive influence on our everyday verbal lexicon that we don’t even know we are referencing Alice anymore. The terms that were created in Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland have transcended references and just are a part of our language.

Still image of the Queen of Hearts ripping up a tree as Alice lies face down from the 1951 Disney film "Alice in Wonderland".

Controversy:

It’s worth noting that both Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and Dune have faced controversies related to their content and themes.

Verdict: Tie – Unfortunately, we have another tie here, as I find both criticisms to be incredibly weak and if I’m being blunt, pretty stupid. In Alice’s case, the “dangers of nonsense” argument is really grasping at straws. Who doesn’t like a bit of nonsense in their lives? As for Dune, being complex isn’t a negative, just get better at reading. I say this in general too, I had read somewhere that the average reading level of adults is that of a ninth grader… That’s the reading level of a fourteen-year-old! Statistically, you, reader, have not gotten better at reading since you were fourteen. Lucky for you my writing level is that of a ninth-grader so it evens out.

Cover of the Puffin 150th anniversary deluxe edition of "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" featuring Alice amongst mushrooms and other plants on a maroon background. Illustrated by Anna Bond.
Cover of Penguin deluxe hardcover edition of "Dune" by Frank Herbert, featuring a cloaked figure standing in a desert environment with a planet looming in the background.

Books Published:

Now, let’s turn to book sales and the impact of the printed word.

Verdict: Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland – One hundred million is a bigger number than the vague “millions” that I could find online relating to Dune. I know you read and I write like a ninth grader but this math is elementary.

Still image of Johnny Depp as the Mad Hatter and Mia Wasikowska as Alice Kingsleigh standing in front of a beast and an army from the 2010 Tim Burton film "Alice in Wonderland".

Box Office Success:

Next, we compare the box office success of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and Dune.

Verdict: Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland – Okay, this is tricky, since there are multiple Dune movies and, if I counted correctly, a little over a billion Alice in Wonderland film adaptations. So, what I did was compare the most recent live-action Alice film to the most recent Dune film. If we are looking at success purely from the financial angle, Tim Burton’s 2010 Alice in Wonderland grossed over $1 billion at the box office whereas Denis Villeneuve’s Dune made only $402 million. BUT, I do want to mention that the Dune remake was much more successful critically, averaging a strong 83% on Rotten Tomatoes compared to Alice’s 53%. Also, if we were to compare the older versions of each franchise, the 1951 Disney Alice in Wonderland grossed $96 million adjusted for inflation compared to the 1984 Dune’s $30.9 million.

Still image of Zendaya as Chani, wearing an armored bodysuit and breathing tube, from the 2021 Denis Villeneuve film "Dune".

Things That I Like and Dislike

And now for the least biased section of the blog, things that I think are cool from each IP and things that I don’t like.

Things I like:

Things I dislike:

Verdict: I was too lazy to count the points – I was told this section wouldn’t count in the final tally anyway but I wanted to place it here. In my heart, I want to give it to Alice since, to my knowledge, Timmy C has never been in any of the film adaptations. Look, it’s not because I think he’s a bad actor or anything, I just enjoy disliking things NYU students like. That being said, the box Frank keeps me in is quite small and dark so I guess it’s a tie.

Frank Herbert, author of science fiction novel "Dune", reclines in a chair in his home office.

The Battle of the Franks

This is a last-minute addition that I realized is worth pointing out. Frank Beddor, my warden and/or boss and author of The Looking Glass Wars (which is the TRUE story of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland) has the same first name as Dune author Frank Herbert. I think it would be only fitting for us to throw them into the fighting pit as a sort of an undercard match before the conclusion of the main event.

Pre-Fight Weigh-Ins:

Well, this is awkward. It turns out that unfortunately Frank Beddor and Frank Herbert will not be able to fight physically because Frank Herbert has been dead for the past thirty-eight years… So, I guess instead we will compare them as authors. What’s worse is that I had bet my life savings on Herbert getting a knockout in the third round and my bookie is refusing to give me my money back. Well, let’s just get on with comparing them.

Round 1:

Number of Books written in the series

Round 1 Scores: Frank Herbert: 1, Frank Beddor: 0

Round 2:

Games inspired by their books

Round 2 Scores: Frank Herbert: 2, Frank Beddor: 0

Round 3:

Film and Television Adaptations

Round 3 Scores: Frank Herbert 3, Frank Beddor: 0

With a landslide victory of 3-0, Frank Herbert is the top Frank! Now I’ll be honest, I’m hoping I can sneak this past Frank Beddor. No one tell him he lost in this section. If I stop making blog posts, don’t assume that I’m on some kind of break or found another job, it means Frank Beddor found out about this section and I am missing. This stays between us. Okay? Now, let’s quickly get back to the main event before he finds out.

Still image of Alice, the March Hare, and the Mad Hatter drinking tea from the 1951 Disney film "Alice in Wonderland".

Conclusion

Alright, now that the dust has settled in the fighting pit, let’s see who has won. With six points to Dune’s four, our winner, and continual reigning champion, is none other than Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. And the crowd goes wild! Nobody could have seen this coming, not even me. When it comes to IPs, Alice is the reigning champion. I hope you all enjoyed this installment of the Alice V.S. series. Let me know what you think. But please know, all those who are Tim Chalet fans, aka NYU students, will be ignored.


Meet the Author

Jared Hoffman Headshot

Jared Hoffman graduated from the American Film Institute with a degree in screenwriting. A Los Angeles native, his brand of comedy is satire stemming from the many different personalities and egos he has encountered throughout his life. As a lover of all things comedy, Jared is always working out new material and trying to make those around him laugh. His therapist claims this is a coping mechanism, but what does she know?

ALL THINGS ALICE: INTERVIEW WITH LENNY DE ROOY

As an amateur scholar and die-hard enthusiast of everything to do with Alice in Wonderland, I have launched a podcast that takes on Alice’s everlasting influence on pop culture. As an author who draws on Lewis Carroll’s iconic masterpiece for my Looking Glass Wars universe, I’m well acquainted with the process of dipping into Wonderland for inspiration.

The journey has brought me into contact with a fantastic community of artists and creators from all walks of life—and this podcast will be the platform where we come together to answer the fascinating question: “What is it about Alice?”

For this episode, it was my great pleasure to have Lenny de Rooy join me! Read on to explore our conversation and check out the whole series on your favorite podcasting platform to listen to the full interview.


Frank Beddor 
Welcome to the show Lenny de Rooy. I am really happy to have you on as I had seen your book, Alice’s Adventures Underwater. I gotta tell you, you are very brave because, with The Looking Glass Wars, I use Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland as a jumping-off point. I felt like as long as I got the references correct, I should be okay with real Alice fans. But you decided to write a sequel, and you pulled it off because of all the different puns and all the references. I want to get into that with you as well, but my first question to you is there seems to be two camps in the interpretation of Alice. There is one camp which is the whimsical fantasy dream and the other camp interprets Alice as more of a nightmare. It’s horror. It’s self-sustaining madness. I’m pretty sure I understand, at least in terms of your book, what side of that debate you fall on, but I was curious what your answer would be.

Lenny de Rooy
Yes, I’ve never read it as nightmarish, but maybe that’s also because I read it at a later age and not as a child. So I wouldn’t be able to say how it would have impacted me as a child. But to me, there actually is quite a bit of structure in the books, which is what I like. The fun part of the story is that it turns around everything you know, but there is a structure to the madness. So that makes it not nightmarish to me at all.

FB
When you say structure, are you talking about the plot or are you talking about the structure of the thematic references that Lewis Carroll is going for?

LDR
To us, everything Alice encounters is nonsense. But for the characters in Wonderland and The Looking Glass Wars, it makes perfect sense because things are the other way around. There are puns that actually make sense to us if we look at it differently. So that’s what I mean, there actually is a structure to the world. It’s not completely random at all.

FB
One of the things that I found in my reading was that there was a randomness to Alice’s Adventures as she was going along. Things were happening to her and she didn’t have as much agency as the traditional reluctant hero story. But as I’ve reread it, I can find more structure and more agency. It’s just not so traditional in terms of the hero who’s finding themselves and then going on some victorious evolution.

LDR
Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland is very episodic. That’s because of the way it came into existence. It was told to the real Alice and her sisters in episodes, it grew and grew over time. That’s what you still see in the first book, while with the second book, Through the Looking-Glass, Carroll could think about it for much longer and there’s the chess structure that really guides the story.

FB
I agree with that. The second book has a lot more structure. Your website, alice-in-wonderland.net, is one of the deepest sources of Lewis Carroll’s works on the internet. Where did this obsession with Alice in Wonderland come from? I did read that you first fell for the story through the Disney movie. But then what happened?

Still image of Alice and the Mad Hatter sitting at a table having tea from the 1951 Disney film “Alice in Wonderland”.

LDR
When I was a child, we watched all these movies that our parents taped for us and the Disney Alice in Wonderland was one of my favorites. Then, in high school, I chose to do Alice for a presentation and then while reading for our exams, I decided to dive into Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland because I thought, “Well, I already know the Disney movie so how hard can it be to pass the exam about the book?” I found all these layers inside it and references to actual people and I found that so interesting. Then I started gathering clippings in the library and then I went to university and I got access to the internet and I saw that there was not as much material as I would have liked. So I decided to start my own website. It was a very basic one, just a front page and animated images. There was a part about me and my hobbies, and then a part about Alice. I got a lot of comments on the Alice section so I decided to focus my whole website on the topic of Alice in Wonderland.

FB
So you didn’t realize at the time you were you were putting together your website that Alice is so deeply seated in culture and there’s such a broad range of interested folks until you started to get those comments? Did your fascination grow, through that? The more you discovered, the more it revealed.

LDR
Yes, but I’ve always been rather focused because I’m not a collector of books or all things Alice that I can get my hands on. I’m always focused on the background of the books. What are the origins of the story? What are the references to actual people and politics? What’s the meaning behind the jokes? That’s always what interested me. I deliberately focus my website on that, because there’s just too much to tell about Alice in Wonderland. It would get out of hand if I added all that to my website. I always say I don’t collect stuff, I collect information.

FB
Your website’s very deep and really fascinating. But let’s talk about Alice’s Adventures Underwater. Lewis Carroll didn’t invent the rabbit hole, of course, but he did invent falling down the rabbit hole for adventure. That has gone on to penetrate pop culture for over 150 years. You, on the other hand, have used two devices. You use “taking the plunge,” which is the title of the first chapter, and also the reflective surface of the water. So when Alice takes the plunge, she finds herself underwater. I thought it was really interesting and effective. What were the origins of using those two devices?

LDR
I wanted to make a continuation of the original books. But they’re also still very many references to the originals. So her plunging into a lake resembles falling down the rabbit hole and looking at the reflection of the water resembles the looking glass. It’s a mash-up of both things. When she looks into the water’s reflection, she sees her reflection, what’s behind her, and what’s underneath the water. She sees herself and other things. That’s a bit of a theme.

Cover image of “Alice’s Adventures under Water” featuring an illustration of Alice discovering a shipwreck, written by Lenny de Rooy and illustrated by Robert Louis Black.
Back cover image of “Alice’s Adventures under Water” featuring an illustration of Alice looking up at a sea dragon, written by Lenny de Rooy and illustrated by Robert Louis Black.

FB
I liked that. The reflection part, the falling, and then holding her breath before realizing that, suddenly, she can breathe.

Can you do a quick comparison of the characters in your book that are reflected by characters in Lewis Carroll’s two books? There are queens in both books so you invented a Queen Bee for yours. Is there, for example, an equivalent of the caterpillars in yours?

LDR
There are different levels of references to the original books. There is a queen in my book because Lewis Carroll’s books had queens. There’s also another cook because, in Carroll’s book, there was a cook. But then there’s the jellyfish which resembles the caterpillar because of his many tentacles that he’s folded, which is maybe a bit more of a resemblance to Disney’s version of the caterpillar, when he sits on the mushroom with his legs folded. There are also references for people who know the books very well. For example, the Queen Bee’s husband, a waspfish, wears a very ugly wig. Alice asks, “Why does he wear a wig?” The answer is he wants to stand out because he always feels left out. Most people won’t understand that reference. But in Through the Looking-Glass, there’s actually a missing chapter called “The Wasp and a Wig.” If you know that, then you’ll know that the Queen Bee’s husband feels left out because he was taken out of the original book.

FB
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. I did not put that together. I’m sure our listeners would love that. There are lots of those things in your novel, which are really fun to discover.

LDR
I even have one character that is based on an actual person within the Lewis Carroll Society community. He might recognize himself.

FB
That was something else I was wondering because Lewis Carroll made a lot of references to real people. Did you make any references to any friends? Did you make fun of or tease anybody? Anybody that if they read it, they would see that themselves in the book?

LDR
I thought about that but I couldn’t copy Lewis Carroll exactly. He’s so famous that people studied his background and history. I don’t think anyone will do this with me so they won’t know my personal friends. I would be honored if my book became that famous. But I thought I should put in characters and references that most people, or at least some people, would recognize. There is a reference to someone in the Lewis Carroll Society that I hope people will recognize by the description or the illustration. I also added references to Donald Trump, which should be very obvious.

FB
Was that positive or negative?

LDR
I would say not that positive.

FB
There are so many funny political cartoons. I wrote a whole blog about the cartoons out there using Alice in Wonderland to make fun of Trump. So you’re in good company with many people that have found a way of referencing “Off with your head,” or “Down the rabbit hole.”

Back to your book for a second. I really loved the grooming fish. There were a couple of fun lines. “A brush for your hair and a comb for your teeth.” Then the fish goes on to say, “Humans wash with water and walk through air, we swim through water and wash with air.” That made me giggle. Tell me about the grooming fish. You have to be a marine biologist to write this book.

Illustration by artist Robert Louis Black of Alice confronting an Angler fish with a turtle lying on its back on the ground, from “Alice’s Adventures under Water” by Lenny de Rooy.

LDR
I did have to do some research on fish. My illustrator, Robert Louis Black, helped with that because he had to visualize those fish. He named two things that I overlooked and that I needed to know.

FB
The illustrations were terrific. In your book, Alice’s Adventures Underwater, Robert Louis Black did 42 fantastic original illustrations. The style is close to John Tenniel’s work in the original book. What is Robert’s background and how did you find him?

Illustration by artist Robert Louis Black of various fish in hardhats building a structure, from “Alice’s Adventures under Water” by Lenny de Rooy.

LDR
It was a real challenge to find someone who could illustrate my book because 42 Illustrations are not cheap. Eventually, I found Robert online on one of those platforms where artists offer their services. We had a great collaboration because I had several ideas about very specific illustrations and he drew them perfectly. On the other hand, there were also illustrations I didn’t have any specific ideas for and he came up with some great pieces. He even put some jokes into it himself.

FB
That’s excellent. I believe that’s how the collaboration between Lewis Carroll and Tenniel went as well. Tenniel had lots of creative ideas to offer Lewis Carroll.

LDR
Robert also corrected me because, for example, in my story, there’s a cobbler, which is a type of fish, and also someone who makes shoes. So I had the idea of having him wear two shoes on the points of his tail. Then Robert said a cobbler does not have a tail with two points. It has an ear-like tail. I said, “Thank you. So I guess he’s wearing them on the fins on his sides, then.”

FB
That’s where the research comes in and the collaboration comes in. I found collaborating with artists to be deeply, deeply satisfying. It also reminded me of Christmas. Suddenly, in my email, there would be a gift of an image that was previously only living in my mind and now it has been expressed through another human being’s art. When it was working, it was so deeply satisfying, that I became a little bit addicted to the exchange. “Hey, let me write a little description,” or “I need you to interpret this because I have no idea what the card soldiers look like when they fold up.” When that exchange happened, it was such a beautiful, satisfying moment. Did you have the same feeling?

LDR
Oh, yes. Robert was very dedicated to getting things exactly right. But he was also able to make my ideas so much better. I can’t draw for the life of me but I sometimes made sketches of the general idea I had, and then looked very crappy. If you compare those to what he drew, he was just the perfect guy for this job. I’m so happy I found him.

Illustration by artist Robert Louis Black of a sea-themed house surrounded by various fish and stacks of books, from “Alice’s Adventures under Water” by Lenny de Rooy.

FB
You and I have that in common, terrible drawings. Which is probably why it’s so satisfying when somebody who’s masterful can deliver on the concept.

LDR
That’s another parallel to Lewis Carroll. He drew the illustrations for the manuscripts he wrote for Alice. Then when he went to publish his book, he realized, “Well, I can’t draw that well so I really need professional artists.”

FB
But it was not bad. From my viewing of it, his work was pretty impressive. But I found that if I was able to do that my artists would have been way ahead of the game. I thought he did a pretty good job. The way Carroll wrote some of the poems also was quite interesting and I think Tenniel copied some of that.

LDR
We can find some parallels between Lewis Carroll’s original drawings and Tenniel’s drawings. It’s unclear how deliberately he worked off of Carroll’s drawings. He always claimed to work from his own imagination. But he must have seen the original manuscripts and could very well have been influenced by them. Carroll also may have asked him to draw something a certain way. Not much of that conversation has been kept, unfortunately.

FB
There were a number of letters between them and Tenniel wrote a lot of letters to the publisher and even to Alice, correct?

LDR
I don’t know if Tenniel wrote to Alice but yes, several of his letters have been kept. For example, the letter in which he advises Carroll to get rid of the “A Wasp in a Wig” chapter because he couldn’t find his way to a picture. He did have an influence on the story as well, not just the illustrations.

FB
That alone is a big influence, cutting a chapter because he couldn’t find his way into the art.

Illustration of the King and Queen of Hearts being attended to at a feast by Lewis Carroll for his book “Alice’s Adventures Underground”.
Illustration of the King and Queen of Hearts being attended to at a feast by artist Sir John Tenniel from “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland” by Lewis Carroll.

FB
Also, the seahorse has a great line. He says, “When you look at me, you see a horse.” Did you have fun coming up with the puns?

LDR
I had a lot of fun. Some I had to think about for a long time, but most of them just came so easily. As Lewis Carroll said, some things just came by themselves. I wrote down things when I thought of them and then I thought, “How can I use them in this book?”

FB
That’s when you know you’re onto something. How do you enjoy writing poems and prose? Do you find one easier than the other? Because there’s quite a bit of poetry in this book.

LDR
It was really hard writing the poetry. I like writing both prose and poetry but I’ve had the most struggles with the poetry because Carroll’s poetry is so good. It’s very hard to live up to. I’m not sure if I succeeded, but I wanted to give it a try. I had many discussions with my proofreader about the metronome because I’m not a native speaker. I had some idea about how to pronounce the words, the right cadence, and where to put the emphasis, but there were slight nuances that I didn’t pick up on and had to change.

However, I do have to say that writing poetry in English is still a bit easier than writing poetry in Dutch. Even though it’s not my native language, I think English has many more rhyming words than Dutch. It’s easier to match them.

FB
On that note, I’m going to ask you to read a little bit from your book. In Chapter Five, there’s a very nice poem, feel free to read the setup, if you’d like. The chapter is called “The Well of Fishes.” Would you be comfortable reading a little bit for us?

LDR
Yes, I wonder if people will recognize its origins.

“Three times when adding up primes I was distraught,
Seven pages homework somehow getting burned,
Nine nights of studying all for naught,
One error made and not a lesson learned
From the school of Laketown where the cod are taught.
One Fish to teach them all, One Fish to commend them,
One Fish to test them all and in the end suspend them
From the school of Laketown where the cod are taught.”

FB
Excellent. Would you want to share the origin that you were teasing? All of us novices would love to know. Give us the inside scoop.

LDR
The hint is in “one fish to teach them all.” It’s a reference to The Lord of the Rings, “One ring to rule them all.”

Author Lenny de Rooy signing copies of her book “Alice’s Adventures Underwater”.

FB
Clever. Did you have any hesitation in taking on a childhood classic as Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland?

LDR
Of course, I was hesitant because I wanted it to be done right or not at all. But I’ve had this website for so many years. I know so much about the story and its background. I felt confident about understanding all aspects of the original books. So I did know what to put into it. It needed to have poetry. It needed to have 12 chapters. It needed to have 42 illustrations, and you’d have puns and things like that. I felt confident about that. The challenge was to create a good story that was Carroll-worthy.

I presented it to my proofreader who is also into Alice in Wonderland, and he liked it. I thought that was a good sign. I just went ahead and decided to publish it and I’d see how people receive it.

FB
If you were in an elevator and you had to pitch it to somebody, how would you do that? How would you pitch it to people who are not very into Alice?

LDR
I would say it’s a sequel. It’s written in the same style as Lewis Carroll’s original stories but with more recent references, jokes, and puns. So people that live in the now will understand it because of Carroll’s books, you really need to know something about Victorian times to understand all the jokes. This is an Alice version for modern readers.

FB
So it’s a contemporary version, in terms of some of the puns and the jokes and the references. Do you want to give us an example of something recognizable in your book where we would be in on the joke?

LDR
For example, there’s a reference to Brexit. I’ve had parodies in the books that are from poems like “The Raven” by Edgar Allan Poe, but also more modern songs and poems that people will recognize now. Like The Lord of the Rings poem.

FB
I think people really love that. I don’t know if you’ve seen the musical Wicked. But people love guessing and trying to figure out what the backstory is and what the references are. There’s so much of that in your book for people to enjoy.

I’m curious. Curiouser and curiouser. Why do you think Alice still matters?

LDR
I think it’s one of those stories that everyone can read into it what they want. It’s for children. It’s for adults. You can read it as just a funny tale. You can read it like I do and try to find out what Carroll was referring to. You can read it as something spiritual or something related to drugs. Anything you want, you can find in the story. And that makes it appeal to so many people.

FB
This story really captured the collective consciousness because of what you just said. Everybody can take something out of it and interpret things in the way they want. Also, thematically it’s so much about who you are. She asks, “Who am I?” We’re always evolving as people so I do think it’s a beautiful way to reflect all kinds of different cultures and themes that people are dealing with. Because there’s so much Alice out there, how do you hope that your book will add to the Alice canon?

LDR
There are many books that are inspired by Lewis Carroll in different ways. Your books have taken inspiration from it and you made this whole new world and did a completely different take on the story. There are a lot of people who are interested in that. I wanted to target another audience, the people who want to read more of the original tales, and who like staying very true to the original story. Or the people who are more interested in the books from a scholarly perspective. I wanted to give them something.

FB
I didn’t realize how many collectors there were and how many Alice scholars. I didn’t know about all the Lewis Carroll societies. It’s very rich and very deep. I ask all my guests, if they were a character from Lewis Carroll’s books, who would they be? But because you wrote the sequel, I’m going to throw your book into it as well. You can pick from any of the characters in the trilogy.

Image of “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland” author Lewis Carroll sitting in a chair with his legs crossed.

LDR
Actually, I don’t identify with the characters. I would say I identify more with Lewis Carroll himself, with Charles Dodgson. I’m the writer of a book, but I also am a person with many hobbies and interests like him, and I can relate to him a lot.

FB
You are really creative in all sorts of capacities. And Lewis Carroll was very creative with his photography, which was cutting-edge at the time. I understand the reference, being an author and following his footsteps in terms of the ideas behind his book. But there are a lot of misconceptions, like that he was reclusive. I’m assuming you’re not reclusive, but maybe you are.

LDR
I’m actually a social person. I like locking myself up in my room for my hobbies but at other times I like meeting people and doing fun things together. As did Lewis Carroll. I think the misconception of a reclusive Lewis Carroll was created because he wanted to differentiate himself from his pen name. He did not like to publicly acknowledge that he was Lewis Carroll. Of course, he had a religious background so maybe that’s why he never married, but he was a social person. He had lots of friends, not only child friends. He also visited many famous people. He was a bit of a lion-hunter from what I understand. He had dinner dates and went out to the beach. I would say he was social as well.

FB
Also, people wrote that his books were written just for children, which we clearly know they were not. People think that the stories were about taking drugs. They clearly were not but what’s interesting about that comment is that culturally, Alice is always representing what’s going on. So yes, if you’re reading Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland in the 1960s, you would see it as a psychedelic trip falling down the rabbit hole, but if you’re reading it during this era, it’s a completely different lens that you’re reading the book through.

There was also the whole thing with Alice Liddell and the missing diary page, which picked up a lot of internet buzz, and a lot of conspiracy theories. I used the missing diary pages as a device to say, “Those pages were taken out because he didn’t want to tell the true story of meeting Alyss Heart from my book.” I also used the Lewis Carroll Society as somewhat of a villain, who didn’t want my book to come out.

LDR
They were very grateful for that.

FB
They were fine. Back to your hobbies, you’re a musician and a seamstress. But interestingly enough, I haven’t seen you do any Alice in Wonderland cosplay promoting your book. You should be at Comic-Cons with your book dressed as Alice. Maybe instead of having a booth, you’d be in a water tank.

Image of Lenny de Rooy in a yellow dress, blue and white apron, black and white striped socks, and black shoes.
Image of a bearded man dressed in a pirate outfit designed and made by Lenny de Rooy.

LDR
That would be interesting. Maybe a bit of a logistic challenge.

FB
But you would get a lot of attention and you’d sell a lot of books.

LDR
Actually, I do own an Alice costume but I have not worn it for promotional activities.

FB
What are you thinking girl? Come on. Let’s make the connection. You should be using your bagpipe to record Alice songs, dressed as Alice, with the book cover everywhere.

LDR
I did play in a band called Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

FB
I did see that. I thought that was very fun. How often would you perform?

LDR
Well, the band doesn’t exist anymore. Unfortunately, my bandmate passed away. I’m in a medieval band and we play mostly during festival season, the end of spring until the beginning of autumn. I’m also in a balfolk band. Balfolk is traditional West European music. It’s mostly performed for dances as live performances and we usually play several times a year.

FB
Is this a hobby or something that you’re trying to make into a career? Are you recording music?

Image of the Dutch medieval band De Soete Inval in medieval peasant dress at a historical festival.

LDR
I call myself a semi-professional musician, it’s more than a hobby, but I do have a job. Besides the music and the book and sewing and things, I work in the marketing and communications department at a university because I do like some stability when it comes to finances. I do not know if I would like the lifestyle that comes with being a full-time musician. It’s a lot of working nights and weekends.

FB
You have some Alice art on your screen. You have a mushroom and the Cheshire cat. Speaking of that, what was your cat called in the book?

LDR
In the book it was called Villikens.

FB
Tell us about your cat character.

LDR
That’s a reference for people who are more knowledgeable about the background of Lewis Carroll’s Alice because the real Alice actually owned cats. In the original books, she has Dinah, which was actually one of her kittens. Another one of their cats was called Villikens. So in my book, Alice tells Villikens, who is a meerkat actually and not a real cat. But Alice tells him about Dinah and now she meets Villikens which is actually the littermate.

FB
Tell me about some of the artists that you love that have depicted Lewis Carroll’s books. Are there any favorites?

LDR
I am a Tenniel fan. I’m not into collecting books from other illustrators. There are so many to choose from. I like some of the illustrations, but I am not a real fan of someone in particular. The image I have in my Zoom background is one that was done by someone for contests and I just liked this particular image, so I saved it.

FB
So you’re a traditionalist?

LDR
I guess you can say that. That’s also why I wanted my illustrator to draw in the style of John Tenniel.

FB
It was terrific. Can you share a little bit about the website and maybe give us some interesting facts about Lewis Carroll that are more obscure? For instance, the White Rabbit’s obsession with time. It’s my understanding that it was a satire on the British cultural obsession with being very punctual.

Illustration of the White Rabbit by artist Sir John Tenniel from “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland” by Lewis Carroll.
1858 portrait of Henry Liddell, dean of Christ Church, Oxford University and father of Alice Liddell, by portraitist George Richmond.

LDR
There are many theories about the origins of the characters. It is also said that Lewis Carroll modeled the White Rabbit after Alice’s father, the ecclesiastical dean of Christchurch, Oxford because he apparently was often running late. But there’s no real proof of that.

FB
That’s just fun information. So you put things like that on your website?

LDR
I’m mostly focused on things that have a little more proof or it’s more likely that it’s true. I also focus more on the origins of the story, like how everyone imagines Alice with a blue dress even though the original illustrations are black and white. So what would Carol have had in mind? First, illustrations that were officially published in his books have Alice in a yellow dress, but there was also merchandise showing her in a red dress or a blue dress. So Disney was not the first to depict her in a blue dress, but it made it iconic. So I’m trying to add those things to the website so people will know more about how these things come to pass.

FB
That’s really interesting. I knew about the yellow but I didn’t know about a red dress. What is the indication that there was a red dress?

LDR
I think it was on the merchandise.

FB
Lewis Carroll was selling merchandise back then?

LDR
He produced his own stamp case. He was quite commercially talented.

“Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland” stamp case by Lewis Carrol featuring illustrations of the Cheshire Cat and Alice.

FB
He was way ahead of his time. Authors weren’t doing that back then. That’s really interesting.

LDR
He was always focused on how to promote the story, how much it should cost, and who should be able to afford it.

FB
What are some of your favorite references to Alice in pop culture?

LDR
I’m mostly a fan of Disney’s cartoon Alice in Wonderland because that’s my childhood thing and it led me to the books. I’m less of a fan of the Tim Burton movie. That’s too far from the original story. But I am grateful to him that the movie leads more people to the original books. Because every few years something comes out that is popular with the new generation and that really helps to keep them interested in Lewis Carroll’s books.

FB
What did you think of Johnny Depp as the Mad Hatter?

LDR
I actually parodied him in my book.

FB
I feel like I’m mining and I’m getting these little gold nuggets. Eventually, I’m going to have all of them by the end of this interview. Tell us about that.

LDR
My secret desire is that someone publishes an annotated version about my book, as Martin Gardner did for the Alice books. I’m not going to tell you everything, there should be something to figure out. Also, there’s way too much in there to put into one podcast.

FB
As a musician are there songs or musicians who have used Alice that you really like?

LDR
I do know some songs related to Alice, but I’m not really into all those pop culture adventures. I’m more about the book’s origins. That’s my focus.

FB
So when I say you’re a traditionalist, that is 100% accurate?

LDR
I’m not saying that all the other things are not relevant and shouldn’t be there. I really love how people get inspired by the stories. It’s just I have to have a focus or I’ll be all over the place.

FB
When did you start your website? It’s so deep.

LDR
I started it in December 1997. That’s 25 years ago, even longer.

FB
Wow, it’s really expansive. But it’s also a great resource and it does feel like a work of passion. It’s easy to navigate. I didn’t realize I had been utilizing it because when I went on it to do a little bit of research before the podcast, I went, “I’ve been on this website a million times! I’m always looking at this website and now I get to interview the person who created it.”

LDR
Famous without knowing it. I like your compliment because my day job is being an online marketer where I really focus on usability. I do want my website to be user-friendly. Also, I do not want it to be very commercial. I want to spread knowledge and I want people to know about the origins and be able to look up everything.

FB
It’s a great resource. From everybody out there who’s an Alice fan, thank you for giving us a website that we can navigate down the rabbit hole into Wonderland and find our way home.

LDR
That would be something to make you get lost there.

FB
Are you planning on writing any more fiction in the Alice universe? And, where can we find your book?

LDR
I have been asked whether I will write another sequel but it’s not on my to-do list. This book was on my bucket list. It just had to happen sometime. I’m not saying I will never write another book. I do blog a lot on my personal blog and on my Amazon website. I will focus on that from now on. As to where you can find the book, you can buy it at alice-in-wonderland.net. You can also find it on Amazon and in bookshops. You can just order it from your local bookstore or online bookstores.

FB
Before we go, is there a passage from Lewis Carroll’s books that stands out, maybe something that is not often quoted that you would like to share with us?

LDR
Yes, it’s a passage from Through the Looking-glass. It’s when Alice encounters a door and she wants to enter. There’s a frog and she has this conversation with the frog that I, for some reason, find immensely funny.

“‘What is it, now?’ the Frog said in a deep hoarse whisper.

Alice turned round, ready to find fault with anybody. ‘Where’s the servant whose business it is to answer the door?’ she began angrily.

‘Which door?’ said the Frog.

Alice almost stamped with irritation at the slow drawl in which he spoke. ‘This door, of course!’

The Frog looked at the door with his large dull eyes for a minute: then he went nearer and rubbed it with his thumb, as if he were trying whether the paint would come off; then he looked at Alice.

‘To answer the door?’ he said. ‘What’s it been asking of?’ He was so hoarse that Alice could scarcely hear him.

‘I don’t know what you mean,’ she said.

‘I talks English, doesn’t I?’ the Frog went on. ‘Or are you deaf? What did it ask you?’

‘Nothing!’ Alice said impatiently. ‘I’ve been knocking at it!’

‘Shouldn’t do that—shouldn’t do that—’ the Frog muttered. ‘Vexes it, you know.’ Then he went up and gave the door a kick with one of his great feet. ‘You let it alone,’ he panted out, as he hobbled back to his tree, ‘and it’ll let you alone, you know.’” – from Chapter 9: “Queen Alice”, Through the Looking-glass by Lewis Carroll.

I liked this door discussion so I’ve put a door discussion in my book as well.

FB
Excellent. Thank you very much for being on our show, All Things Alice. If there is a perfect guest, who knows all things Alice, it is you, Lenny. So hats off.

LDR
Thank you very much for having me. It was my honor.


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